BLOG STATUS: Updated 18 Nov 2016. New article on "Harim Harantam" Shruti - Read here

Vishnu – The Supreme Brahman according to all Vedas, Upanishads, Smritis, and prominent Acharyas

sarvadA sarvakAryeShu teShAM nAstyamaN^galam |

yeShAM hR^idistho bhagavAn maN^galAyatano hariH ||

 lAbhasteShAM jayasteShAM kutasteShAM parAjitaH |

eShAm indIvarashyAmo hR^idayastho janArdanaH ||

Introduction

The royal Vedic path of Vaishnavism

The way of anti-Vaishnavite agents

The "Mahapashupatastra" blog

Questionable tactics employed by the blog's author to hide the truth

The anti-Vaishnavite’s motives made clear

A few truths revealed

Truth# 1: The Uttama Purusha in Chandogya Upanishad is Vishnu only. Hence, the Supreme Lord identified in the Bhagavad Gita is Lord Vishnu only, and not Lord Shiva:

Truth# 2: Shri Rudram extols shrIman nArAyaNa only. Moreover, the Vedas speak about the supremacy of Lord Vishnu only everywhere

Truth# 3: Narayana Suktam praises Shriman Narayana alone as the Supreme, and tAmasa purANas are not authoritative

Truth# 4: The so-called Upanishads which proclaim Shiva/Shakti's supremacy are bogus

Truth# 5: Adi Shankara did not write stOtras which glorify any deity other than Vishnu

Conclusion

Appendices

The works of Shri Ramasubba Shastri of Tiruvisanallur

Appayya Dikshita’s desperation, confession, and confusion

References

Reading list for the interested

Introduction

My dear friends! Seekers of The Truth! The purpose of this essay is not to coerce anyone to accept what I believe in, or to hurt well-meaning people of any faith (especially those among smArtas, advaitins, and shaivas). What is written below is indeed what I believe with utmost sincerity, illustrated by undeniable evidences that have not been tampered with. This endeavour of mine was undertaken to defend vaiShNava dharma that has been unfairly maligned, lampooned, and denigrated on the internet and other media by individuals with vested interests. Be you a Vaishnava or not, if you are committed to truth, honesty, and above all to the presentation of Vedantic traditions in a fair and honest way, you will certainly be opposed to this trend.

What you are going to read in this essay may shake you up a little bit, but it has been written with the best of intentions to present the truth without mincing words. While I have done everything to maintain good decorum, you may find my tone a little stern and confident at places. But this is only to emphasize important facts and not to spew hatred at anyone. Those who are willing to honestly consider what I have to say, even if it contradicts their favorite and dearly held beliefs, are invited to continue reading. Those who would rather give this a miss are welcome to avoid my writing and close this page immediately.

We begin here...

Readers, I state thus with confidence: From time immemorial, the most enlightened of souls in this great nation bhAratavarSha (India), including Adi Shankara whose fame is worldwide, have considered Lord Vishnu alone as the Supreme Soul and as the Person par excellence (puruShOttama) spoken of by the Vedas. Not only is He the agent behind the universe's sustenance (signified by his popular conception of the “protector” among the trinity -- Brahma, Vishnu, and Shiva), but also the One who performs creation and destruction as well. He Himself creates the four-faced brahmA from the lotus that springs from His navel (due to which He is popularly known as padmanAbha) and assigns the task of creation during every great eon. Likewise, He is the creator of Lord rudra, variously known as shiva, pashupati, IshAna, mahAdEva, mahEshvara etc. in common parlance in India. He is their in-dwelling controller (antaryAmin), as He is to the entire universe, performing the threefold acts of creation, sustenance, and destruction all by Himself. Thus say the scriptures about Lord Vishnu:

atashca saN^kShiptamimaM shR^iNudhvaM nArAyaNaH sarvamidaM purANaH |

sa sargakAle ca karoti sarvaM samhArakAle ca tadatti bhUyaH ||

Translation: Hear thence this short statement: The ancient nArAyaNa is all this; he produces the creation at the due time, and at the time of reabsorption he consumes it again.

yataH sarvANi bhUtAni bhavantyAdi yugAgame |

yasmiMshca pralayaM yAnti punareva yugakShaye ||

Translation: (This puruShOttama, this viShNu) is from where all the beings were born when the great eons start, into whom they dissolve when these eons pass.

The first quote is given as a  statement from the purANas by Adi shaN^kara bhagavatpAda (Adi Shankara/Adi Shankaracharya) in his brahma sUtra bhAShya, in the smR^ityAdhikaraNa section [BrSuBhS:1]. The brahma sUtra bhAShya is arguably the most important work in Advaita Vedanta by this AcArya. The second verse occurs in the Vishnu Sahasranama Adhyaya of the Mahabharata, and is also quoted by bhAskara (who lived after shaN^kara but before rAmAnuja), in the same smR^ityadhikaraNa section of his commentary on the brahma sUtras [BrSuBhB]. Hence, by no hook or crook can any honest being on the earth dismiss these verses as inauthentic.

Indeed, Sri Shankara Bhagavatpada says in his commentary to the Bhagavad Gita thus:

"(Lord Krishna says) 'I, the Supreme Parabrahman known by name as vAsudeva, am the source of the whole world. From Me alone evolves the whole universe in all its changes, including existence and dissolution, action, effect, and enjoyment'":

ahaM paraM brahma vAsudevAkhyaM sarvasya jagataH prabhava utpattiH | matta eva sthiti-nAsha-kriyA-phalopabhoga-lakSaNaM vikriyA-rUpaM sarvaM jagat pravartate |

(Sri Sankara's commentary to Bhagavad Gita, 10.8) [GBhS:1].

"It (the Bhagavad Gita) expounds specially the nature of the Supreme Being and the Truth known as vAsudeva, the para-brahman, who forms the subject matter of the discourse":

paramArtha-tattvaM ca vAsudevAkhyaM parabrahma-abhideya-bhUtaM visheSataH abhivyaj~nayad vishiSTa-prayojana-sambandha-abhideyavad gItA-shAstraM

(Introductory Chapter, Sri Sankara's bhagavadgItAbhASya). [GBhS:2].

As per all the vedAnta darshanas, there can only be one Supreme God. Even as per Adi Shankara's Advaita vedAnta, the existence of multiple supreme beings is denied. In his authentic works (the bhAShyas on brahma sUtras, gIta, and the ten upaniShads), Shri Shankara identifies the Supreme Being as none other than Vishnu. Here is a short summary:

  1. In his introductory section in bhagavad gItA bhAShya, it is stated that the Supreme Being is "Vishnu, the one known by the name nArAyaNa, the primordial Creator" (Adi kartA nArAyaNAkhyo viShNuH), that he is "beyond the material universe" (nArAyaNaH paro.avyaktAt) and that He is the original Creator of the universe (sa bhagavAn sRShTvedaM jagat). [GBhS:3].

  1. In his commentaries to the Upanishads, where the shruti (the text of the Upanishad) talks about the Supreme Deity but does not show that the name or form of the deity, Shankaracharya clearly identifies the Supreme Being as

  1.  "Supreme Lord with with the name nArAyaNa" (Brihadaranyaka Upanishad bhAShya, 3.7.3) [BrUBhS:1].

  1. "Vishnu, or Ananta, who is the primordial being, who has all the three worlds for His body, and who is the in-dwelling Soul of all the beings" (Mundaka Upanishad bhAShya, 2.1.4) [MuUBhS:1].

  1. "The all-pervading Brahman, the Supreme Soul, known by the name vAsudeva" (kaTha upaniShad bhAShya, 1.3.9) [KUpBhS:1].

  1. In the bhagavad gItA bhAShya 11.43, Shri Shankara says that Vishnu is the unparallelled Supreme Deity, and that there can not be another Supreme Deity, since that would violate logic: [GBhS:4].

na tvat samo.asti, abhi adhika kuto-anyo loka-trayo-api, apratima-prabhAva?

(Bhagavad Gita, 11.43)

[There is none who is equal to you, and when that is the case, how even can there be any who is superior to You in any of three worlds, Oh Lord, who is of unrivaled power?]

Sri Shankara's explanation reflects the Acharya's opinion that the above mode of praise is not at all exaggerated. The Bhagavatpada-Acharya explains thus:

"na hi IshvaradvayaM saMbhavati, anekeshvaratve vyavahAra-anupatteH"

Translation: For there cannot be two Supreme Gods, if so, the world as it exists now will not be able to function properly.  

  1. Commenting on Gita verse 10.2, Sri Shankara explains: [GBhS:5].

na me viduH na jAnanti suragaNAH brahmAdayaH | kiM te na viduH? mama prabhavaM prabhAvaM prabhushakti-atishayam, athavA prabhavaM prabhavanaM utpattiM | na-api maharSayaH bhR^igvAdayaH viduH | kasmAt te na viduriti-ucyate -- aham AdiH kAraNaM hi yasmAt devAnAm maharSINAM ca sarvashaH sarvaprakAraiH

["(Lord Krishna says) 'neither the devas -- Brahma and others -- know; -what do they not know? My majesty, abundance of lordly power-or, derived in the sense of 'coming into being', it means origin. Nor even the great sages, Bhrgu, Marici, Atri, Pulastya, Pulaha, Kratu and Vasistha. This is because I (Lord Krishna) am the Supreme Primordial Cause of all, including the devas and the sages.'"]

[Note: As to why Adi Shankara later came to be wrongly depicted as though he smeared ashes in his body, followed the six faiths equally (Shanmatha), and had works such as "Shivanandalahari" (singing deities other than Vishnu to be supreme and superior to Vishnu) attributed to his name is a matter that is outside the scope of our discussion, at this point.]

That all the other prominent Vedanta Acharyas - Ramanuja, Madhva, Vallabha, Chaitanya, Nimbarka, etc. have thus praised Lord Vishnu as the Supreme Brahman, does not need any proof. However, for the sake of completeness we have provided the details in the "Vaishnava commentary on Rudram" page.

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The royal Vedic path of Vaishnavism

This Lord Vishnu, Person par excellence (the puruShottama) is also the means to liberation from suffering, the most approachable and the best means to eternal bliss and is an End in Himself. Thus, the most enlightened of the souls in the great nation of India, exemplary in their discipline, conviction, and virtues, have been taking refuge in Him from time immemorial thus establishing Vaishnavism as the most supreme and complete path in Vedic sanAtana dharma. With single-minded devotion (ananya bhakti), following the best of the bliss-bestowing scriptures (sAttvika shAstras) such as pA~ncarAtra Agama-s, they have been practicing and preaching the five-fold path of abhigamana, ijyA, pUjA, japa, and svAdhyAya.

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The way of anti-Vaishnavite agents

From time to time, however, fallen souls, driven by their lowly nature which they have unfortunately accrued as a result of their own actions (karma), have developed a sense of contempt at such single-minded ananya bhakti. Shankara, the advaita AcArya, instead says that the vaiShNava position regarding the (i) supremacy of nArAyaNa, (ii) the practice of single-minded devotion, and (iii) the various holy rites and rituals enjoined in pA~ncarAtra samhitas are not to be refuted, but respected by any one who claims to be in the path of Vedanta (Upanishads):

"tatra yattAvaducyate yo.asau nArAyaNaH paro.avyaktAt prasiddhaH paramAtmA sarvAtmA... yadyapi tasya bhagavato.abhigamanAdilakShaNam ArAdhanam ajasram-ananya-cittayA.abhipreyate, tadapi na pratiShidhyate, shrutismR^ityorIshvarapraNidhAnasya prasiddhatvAt"

[We do not intend to oppose the doctrine that nArAyaNa, who is superior the material universe, who is the supreme soul (paramAtmA), and the soul for all (sarvAtmA)... Nor do we mean to object to the inculcation of unceasing single-minded devotion on the Supreme Lord which appears in the Pancharatra doctrine under the forms of abhigamana (visiting Vishnu temples with utmost devotion in mind, with senses subdued) etc., for that we are to meditate on the Lord we know full well from shruti and smRti. - Brahma Sutra Bhashya, 2.2.42] [BrSuBhS:2]

Instead of following this advice, today they cavil at vaiShNavas when these devotees, with the sole purpose of enjoying the Lord’s form, nature, and deeds (bhagavad-anubhava), write or talk about the supreme position of bhagavAn vAsudeva as it is established clearly in the veda as well as in the itihAsas, purANas, and other ancillary texts that solely serve the purpose of explaining the purport of the Vedas. They find it unbearable when the bhAgavatas show lucidly that the puruShottama, the Person par excellence in the Vedas, is none but shrIman nArAyaNa. They ask, "why can't you let Shiva have his share of glory?", seldom knowing that there is nothing from Lord Vishnu's Supreme attributes that are available for sharing by others. For it is clearly stated in the Gita and in the commentaries of Shri Shankara and other knowledgeable personalities thereon that "there cannot be two Supreme Gods, if so, the world as it exists now will not be able to function properly".

Filled with hate directed at Vaishnavas and desperate to win them in debate (which is impossible), they resort to dishonest means such as:

  1.  Spreading blatant lies deliberately,

  1. Maliciously interpolating verses into shruti and smRti texts, making them look as if these texts actually support their side,

  1. Appropriating works that celebrate Vishnu and fabricating ways to reinterpret them, with the same motive as above,

  1. Hiding and misrepresenting historical information,

  1. Demonizing vaiShNavas as “intolerant”, “abrahamic”, etc.,

  1. Hiding and misrepresenting vaiShNava writings, and

  1. Destroying works written by vaiShNavas, thereby effectively silencing them.

We shall briefly describe one such attack on Vaishnavism and explain the truths revealed by the incident.

These attacks against Vaishnavism are not new. Nor is there any reason to think that Vaishnavism has no defense to such attacks, for history has shown otherwise.

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The "Mahapashupatastra" blog

The owner of the aforementioned blog displays his hostility to traditional Vaishnavism through his articles. Through them, he seeks to vehemently oppose traditional vedantins, especially those who follow rAmAnuja and madhva. In addition, his aim is to censure authors on the internet and social media who boldly speak about the supremacy of Vishnu, the Purushottama. His blog page itself (link) contains ridiculous claims, such as:

(i) nArAyaNa sUktam is a shAkta hymn and shrIman nArAyaNa is not the  deity praised in it.

(ii) Bhagavad Gita is actually told by Shiva and Lord Krishna is just a mouthpiece/loud speaker through whom Shiva speaks

(iii) The bhAgavata purANa, which extols Vishnu above Shiva, is a bogus text.

There are many such utterances and loads and loads of garbage on that blog that can easily confound any genuine truth-seeker. Moreover, the way such anti-Vaishnavites explain the Vedas makes it look as if the Vedas are all gibberish.

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Questionable tactics employed by the blog's author to hide the truth

I, along with a shrIvaiShNava bhAgavata, entered into a debate with the author of "Mahapashupatastra" (from here on, whenever I refer to 'our friend', it will refer to this person) by posting comments under a certain article. The article under question was titled "Story of Subduing Shiva's Pride from Ramayana is FAKE!" (link). Of course, anything that clearly establishes Vishnu's supremacy is fake according to our friend.

In the course of the debate, this shaivite author was clearly owned by me and the bhAgavata. Our friend was clearly getting choked. Enraged because of this and afraid that his friends may find out that he lost in debate, he removed all the comments that I and the bhAgavata posted. The bhAgavata protested, followed by a reply by our shaivite friend smugly laughing at us, as if he had won something:

UnknownApril 13, 2013 at 12:05 AM

I see you have deleted my posts as well as that of another Vaishnava which soundly refuted your asinine views.

Deleting our posts does you no good. Only shows your ignorance and desperation. Oh well, atleast it shows that what you have is not a 'mahApashupatastra', but a broken twig!

Reply

Replies

  1. Santosh Kumar AyalasomayajulaApril 13, 2013 at 5:06 AM
    I am NOT scared of your and his absurd arguements. It is your opinion that your points successfully refuted me. Live in your utopia.

    I deleted those stupid arguements to save the readers of this blog from getting misled or confused. I have full capacity to refute every such arguements and I'll do slowly slowly. You know what? Your and his arguements gave me nice points tro write articles. I don't debate with my full intensity because of two reasons:-


    1. I don't keep a database of anti-vishnu references handy with me like you vaishnavas who are always equipped with anti-shiva references. For me Vishnu is also adorable but not the way you vaishnavas do. I have my own love for him hence seldom prepare with references to attack.

    2. I strongly believe in the saying what my friend's guru said to him - "Debate produces a lot of heat but no light!". Therefore you and your friend are not so significant in my life to spend my valuable time in clarifying/countering your points. My time is precious hence cannot waste it on you and your friend.

    3. Gone are those days when people used to debate professionally, following the right rules of it. Now I see all these Vaishnavas doing mud-fight and not a professional debate. Debate needs to be done following authentic scriptures, NOT demented cult generated philosophies. And hence I have no interest in speaking to you and your cult-people.

    4. I gain my coherent thoughts while writinga rticles where i refute strongly the demented philosophies. But in direct debates i usually do not remain synergetic and coherant. So, even whatever replies I gave to your and your friend's comments; all were very casual and fluffy. SO, removed even my replies which were also confusing to the audience.



    But rest assured your and your friend's time spent on this space is not wasted. I have deleted all your and your friend's stupid comments from this blog, but know that I have saved a copy of them with me personally. You both have given me NICE points to refute. Thanks to both of you. You have given me nice topis to create articles. In fact you both have helped me in generating more articles here.

    I deleted your comments because they were arbitrarily posted and I see a great opportunity for thrashing them through articles, but the readers of this blog would get misled by your arbitrarily placed specially tailored arguments; which I don't want to do to the readers of this blog.

    And yea, your comment on mahapashupatastra as a broken twig really gave me laughter. I laughed for few seconds. Thanks for giving a good HUMOUR. But rest asusured in few years I will give you all a big TUMOUR (hehehe...just some word to follow a rhyme scheme, but you would have understood what it meant :-) )

    You have no idea about my capacity, my strengths; so pinching me every now and then by posting comments is not good for you. Pls refrain from visiting my blog or at least posting your stupid arguements here. In 2-3 years (if everything goes right by god's grace)I'll make sure that you all would not even dare to visit this blog, commenting is a remote option! (Sounds funny? It should sound funny now, but it would take away your laughter off your face once i succeed in establishing my vision)

    Good bye! I don't want to see anti-shiva people's inauspicious presence in my blog. So, kindly stop irritating me with your comments.

You can clearly see our friend's dishonesty here. His statement that he "removed comments because it will confuse its readers" makes his position look like that of Islamist fundamentalists who run Saudi Arabia that won't allow any religious literature "written by infidels" that criticize Islam out of fear that "it will spread corruption in their pristine Islamic society".

A person who hides truths from innocents and gullible people that have placed blind trust on him commits an act of violence and betrayal. Such an act is a deliberate effort to push the gullible and faithful truth-seekers into the hellfire of self-denial.

We now come to the main point here. Our poor friend was seldom aware that I had subscribed to the comments in that thread, and that every comment that was posted in that thread made its way into my email inbox, and hence removing the comments from his blog post did not do any good. I am posting here below, all of the comments that were removed by our shaivite friend. Genuine seekers of truth can see below what is being hidden from their viewing. (Note: the bhAgavata posted as "Unknown" and I posted as "Humble Bhagavata Bandhu"). For completion, I am posting these with the first few comments which our friend has not deleted. I have highlighted a few points made by our side in green and have explained it here below the comments.

Unknown                           April 3, 2013 at 2:28 AM

LMAO, This blog is utter rubbish.

Fact no. 1 - Vaishnavas do not interpret jR^imbhitam as 'unstrung'. We interpret it as 'rendered inert'. That means, the war cry of Vishnu rendered both Shiva and his bow ineffective. Shiva became unconscious and the bow was rendered 'inert', ie, incapable of usage.

'saayakam dhanuu' means pArvati pati handed over the bow along with the arrows. It does not indicate he fitted the arrows to the bow. Again, read the vaishnava commentaries on ramayana.

Fact 2: Your other posts on nArAyaNA being tripura sundari, etc are errant nonsense not supported by pracIna vaidikas like adi shankara, ramanuja, madhva, etc.

Fact 3: The Rudra mentioned in the Rudram is none other than Sriman Narayana. I have written a detailed commentary on the 1st anuvakam of Rudram myself. All names like Nilalohita, Tripurantaka, Tryambaka, Rudra, Sarva, Shiva, Shambhu, Svayambhu, Girisha, etc refer only to nArAyaNa.

In fact, Rudram establishes the 5 forms of Vishnu in the mantra 'asau yo tamrO aruna...' and goes on to say that this Rudra descends as Vishnu (avasarpati), as the antaryamin of nilagriva (parvati pati) and antaryami of vilohita (brahma; he is red because of rajO gunam)!

Fact 4: The tattvam of the Tripura Samharam is as follows.

The name 'Hara' as per ranga ramanuja muni's vyakhyanam for svetasvatara means 'one who enjoys prakrti', ie, refers to the jivatmna. In the Banasura charithra of Harivamsha, the Sivajvara refers to Shiva as 'Hara,the destroyer of Tripura'.

So, In the tripura samharam, Shiva is Hara, ie the Jiva. The facts about vedas becoming chariot, devas giving their powers, omkara becoming bow string, brahma as chariotdriver refers to various accessories of upasana, namely, bhakti yoga such as pranavOpasanam, sadaacharyan, etc. Vishnu, as the arrow tip, is the indirect upayam for completion of bhakti yoga, as he is the parabrahman. The three cities are sattva, rajo and tamo guna, which are transcended by completion of upasanam. The releasing of the arrow by Shiva is equal to the performance of upasanam by jivatma, ie, the self effort required. The arrow tip destroyed the cities, ie, Vishnu, the eternal brahman, completes the upasanam.

Thus, this incident shows shiva is a jivatma. 'Eko ha vai nArAyaNa asIt, na brahma, nEshana...' Siva did not exist during pralaya. The 'nakaara' in nArAyaNa makes it a proper noun and he is identified with Vishnu in the Vishnu gayatri. All other gayatris, including RudraGayatri, begin with 'tatpurusha' whereas Vishnu Gayatri begins with 'Narayana'.

Fact 5: The mandara mountain did not literally become the bow, just as the sun and moon did not literally become chariot wheels. It means, the power of the mandara mountain, sun, moon, devas, etc was imparted to parvati pati during tripura samhara. So, there is no contradiction in saying the bow mentioned in the rAmAyaNa is the same as the one used in Tripura Samharam.

It was Vishnu who misled the asuras with false matham. It was Vishnu who took away the chastity of the wives. It was Vishnu who drank up the pool that rejuvenated the asuras to life, preventing them from rejuvenation. It was Vishnu who was 'tripurAntaka', ie, the arrow tip that destroyed the cities.

The tamasa puranas try to hide all this by saying Shiva destroyed tripura with a smile. Since they are tamasa puranas that contradict the veda, they are rejected.

Even now, I have no issues with Shaivas claiming supremacy of Shiva. That is their matham. I only wanted to counter the claim that we interpret jrimbhitam as unstrung, when we do not. Just don't put words into the mouth of Vaishnavas that we do not utter ourselves.

Of course, all this is lost on a Vaishnava dveshi like you. I am sure you will come up with more incoherent ideas that are the product of an overactive imagination in a feeble attempt to counter this. Keep rambling..

Santosh Kumar AyalasomayajulaApril 4, 2013 at 1:02 AM

[QUOTE]I am sure you will come up with more incoherent ideas that are the product of an overactive imagination in a feeble attempt to counter this. Keep rambling.[UNQUOTE]

I didn't want to reply to your comment because i don't like to interact with anonymous/"unknown" people. But seeing your "surity" of belief that i would reply, in order to make your words not to get falsified, i am replying. May your belief be true! :-)

Your parents would have given a very beautiful name to you, and you should be pround of displaying your name. What is this name "unknown"??. I don't like people who hide behind screens and pass comments. I don't play hide and seek with anyone hence byd efault i expect others also to be open, revealed to me. Ownership is important. What you write, you should own it. Whatever i write i own it. that's why i always display my full name with all expansions. Hope you would follow my suggestion in future.

Well, yes your belief is correct. i'll keep rambling; but unfortunately these days i am over burdened with work and higher studies so not able to ramble much. But surely your wish ("keep rambling") would be fulfilled. Just pray to god to give me some free time so that i can ramble hehehe. :-)

[QUOTE]Of course, all this is lost on a Vaishnava dveshi like you. I am sure you will come up with more incoherent ideas that are the product of an overactive imagination in a feeble attempt to counter this. Keep rambling.[UNQUOTE]

Who told you i am a vaishnava dweshi? i oppose only those vaishnavas who hate shiva. My late maternal grandpa was a great devotee of krishna and i always enjoyed his krishna-bhakti. i had no issues with his devotion which was flawless, and he never saw any differences between krishna and other gods. he was a true vishnu bhakta and i am always ready to hug such pious devotees of vishnu.

{QUOTE]Even now, I have no issues with Shaivas claiming supremacy of Shiva. That is their matham. [UNQUOTE]

If you have no problems with shaivas then my blogs are not for you. Kindly do not block my path. My blogs are only for those vaishnavas who hate shiva and not for them who are neutral towards shiva.

Here are explanations for your points:

Santosh Kumar AyalasomayajulaApril 4, 2013 at 1:02 AM

Ans to your fact no. 1:

jRmbhitam has several meanings as given below. It can be used as an adj. or a n. and likewise here are the meanings.

Adj -caused to yawn (fatigued / broken), expanded, increased, enlarged, unstrung, exerted, opened

n.-bursting, wish, exertion, opening, yawning/fatigued, swelling, developing, unfolding, kind of coitus.

I've called jrimbhitam as "unstrung", if that is incorrect as per you, then be it so. Let me go by some authoritative translator. Valmiki ramayana has been translated into english by sri Desiraju Hanumanth Rao. He translates that verse as follows.

tadaa = then; hum kaareNa = by 'hum', sound [of Vishnu]; bhiima paraakramam shaivam dhanuH = ruinously, overpowering, Shiva's, longbow; jR^imbhitam = yawned [fatigued, broken]; atha trilocanaH mahaadevaH = then, triple-eyed, Mahadeva; stambhitaH = motionless [frozen.]

"By the 'hum' sound of Vishnu that ruinously overpowering longbow of Shiva is broken, and the triple-eyed God, Mahadeva, is frozen... [1-75-17b, 18a]

This is even a much bigger contradiction if you see. If by hummm sound that bow is broken how could shiva again give that to devaraata? The rendered inert is given as "sthambhitah" , and it was shiva who was rendered inert and not his bow. his bow was broken by vishnu's humm sound. Jrmbhitam and sthambhitah both are different and jrmbhitam doesn't mean rendering inert. I don't care what you translate it as, since your personal opinions are immaterial to me.

Regarding saayakam dhanuh here is the translation by Desiraju hanumanth rao ji.

samkruddhaH = with indignation; mahaayashaaH rudraH tu = celebrated, Rudra, on his part; videheSu = among Videha [kings]; sa saayakam dhanuu = with, arrow, longbow; raaja R^iSeH = to Kingly, sage; devaraatasya haste dadau = in Devaraata's, hand, handed over.

"That celebrated Rudra on his part with indignation has handed over that longbow, which is already fitted with unloosened arrow, to the sagely king among Videha kings, namely Devaraata... [1-75-20b, 21a]

And again i do not care what you personally translate it as! And you have asked me to read vaishnava commentaries on ramayana. thanks for the suggestion but sorry i can't take it. Ramayana is not a vaishnava property, Sri Rama and Vishnu are also not a copyright of vaishnavas. they are equally worshippable for all hindus. And i like impartial translations instead of secetarian translations. Your secetarian commentaries have always tried to supress truths and elevate falses. so can't follow your suggestion, sorry!

Ans to your fact no. 2:

Hmmmm my errant nonsense on narayana suktam as being a hymn of tripurasudnari is not analyzed by prachina vaidikas because they wanted this information to be disclosed by me :-) shankara, madhawa, ramanuja had foreseen myself to be the right person to analyze that hehehe. Well, whether it looks errant nonsense to you or whatever, the fact is fact that none of the scriptures ever called vishnu as travelling through susumna nerve. that is always kundalini (tripurasundari) and hence my analysis is correct. If you donot like, then it's your problem. please keep your problem with you. I don't go by your opinions, i go by scriptures and my intellect. Thx!

Santosh Kumar AyalasomayajulaApril 4, 2013 at 1:05 AM

Ans to your fact no. 3:

Congratulations to you for having written a commentary on rudram first anuvaka. At personal level i can congratulate you and can say good job! But at professional level i am sorry to say that your udnerstanding of rudram being a hymn to narayana is totally wrong!

In mahabharata veda vyasa and sri krishna have indicated rudram being a hymn of lord shiva in 3 instances. I would go by their words rather than following your "opinion" unless you want to say you are greater scholar than vyasa and sri krishna.

You said, "vilohita (brahma; he is red because of rajO gunam)!" LOL...I think you didn't read puranas where brahma is depicted to have the same color as lakshmi, pink of golden complexion. Brahma is not red!! If i go by your logic of red means rajas then narayana/vishnu being black/dark complexioned must be a god full of tamo-gunam! :-)

Ans to your fact no. 4:

Well, i don't follow kaliyugi saints and their logic. i go by scriptures. hence i respect "ranga ramanuja muni ji's" opinion, but that's just his opinion and not a fact! Several acharyas came in kaliyuga and expressed several opinions, but none of their opinions are acceptable if they contradict scriptures or words of ancient sages. ranga ramanuja ji cannot propose a theory different from what's there in scriptures. Kaivalya upanishad states that tripura is sthoola, sukshma, karana dehas and the lord who sports within them is shiva and he liberates jiva by destroying those tripuras. The three gunas are not tripuras. And for your kind information, the arrow tip was NOT vishnu; vishnu was just the shaft/stem of the arrow, the actual hood (point) was agni which destroyed the tripura. And again agni is none other than rudra. You'll not understand this but still let me state - it again shows "agni somAtmakam jagat" principle and it again glorifies uma-maheshwara tatwam alone.

You said "shiva is jivatma" - but that's not true however, the truth is the other way round - "jivatma is verily shiva". You need to understand the difference between these phrases. I don't know which acharya first propagated this bogus theory of shiva being a liberated jiva and all such nonsense; but know from me that none of the standard scriptures support that view. shiva is verily the parabrahman, the supreme lord.

Well, for your verse which stated shiva didn't exist at the time of pralaya, may i request you to read my narayana suktam article completely? i have already refuted that verse and explained what it means. And regarding narayana being a proper noun or a verb or an adjective, i don't care what part of speech it is, but one thing i can tell you is narayana has several meanings and yes it definitely refers to vishnu but the narayana sukta doesn't praise vishnu there narayana is the name of goddess tripurasudnari.

Santosh Kumar AyalasomayajulaApril 4, 2013 at 1:06 AM

Ans to your fact no. 5:

Well, i agree that the mountain didn't become the bow etc. that arguement i need to correct in my article which even i realized lateron but didn't get a chance to rework on that. Will do that when time permits. But leaving that also the other contradictions that i showed they are valid and hence that story is bogus one. The bow used in tripurasamhara is not the same as the one present in janaka's palace.

Even if for time being i assume that they really fought and then also the reason why shiva got defeated is because shiva gave a boon to narayana saying he would be invulnerable to every weapon and he also said that even if he ever has to fight against shiva then he would be victorious.it exists in mahabharata. so it is shiva's mercy that vishnu would win whenever he has to fight with him. Vedas cleary declare that rudra is unconquerable, and he overpowers his enemies in battle. And if you still want to say ramayana story (which contradicts vedas) is true, then ramayana story needs to be rejected as anti-vedic. Now coming back to tripura-samhara, Vishnu misled the asuras and their wives so how does that make shiva inferior? Staff always does the actual hands-on work but always reports to the supervisor. vishnu helping shiva cannot be a yardstick to call shiva as inferior. Also, i have told you above that vishnu was not the arrow tip he was just the shaft/stem, arrow tip was agni and agni is rudra alone.

There is no logical reason behind calling a purana tamasic. you people are fond of rejecting shaiva puranas as tamasic because they are threat to your beliefs. other than that there is no reason to categorize puranas with gunas. Your satvik purana bhagawatam itself is bogus one, and you are pointing a finger at shiva related texts, huh!

And here come the deleted comments. As the readers can see, these comments were seen by our anti-Vaishnavite friend as a formidable opposition:

Unknown has left a new comment on the post "Story of Subduing Shiva's Pride from Ramayana is F...":

[QUOTE] My late maternal grandpa was a great devotee of krishna and i always enjoyed his krishna-bhakti. i had no issues with his devotion which was flawless, and he never saw any differences between krishna and other gods. he was a true vishnu bhakta and i am always ready to hug such pious devotees of vishnu.[/UNQUOTE]

A Vaishnava is one who worships Vishnu as Supreme and who consider Shiva as a Jivatma. This is based on pramanas like Satapatha Brahmana declaring Rudra to be anapahatapapma and the MahOpanishad declaring Ishana to be absent during pralaya.

Hence, you are no vaishnava. Neither are your friends.

[QUOTE]This is even a much bigger contradiction if you see. If by hummm sound that bow is broken how could shiva again give that to devaraata? The rendered inert is given as "sthambhitah" , and it was shiva who was rendered inert and not his bow. his bow was broken by vishnu's humm sound. Jrmbhitam and sthambhitah both are different and jrmbhitam doesn't mean rendering inert. I don't care what you translate it as, since your personal opinions are immaterial to me.[/QUOTE]

Let me give you a gist.

As pert Govindaraja's vyakhyanam, 'Jimbritam' means Broken. The war cry of Vishnu cracked Shiva's bow just a little. And hence, it was rendered unusable. So, Shiva gave the bow along with the arrows to Janaka's dynasty.

And this is also one of the reasons why Parasurama is claiming that Rama's feat of breaking the bow was not great. Because, the Bow was already slightly cracked. It broke entirely when Rama handled it.

As per the commentary of some madhva scholars, jrimbhitam means rendered 'motionless' or 'jada'. This means, the bow lost its tejas. As you know, the bow of shiva is a divyAstra and hence, it lost its divya tejas and became motionless, ie, incapable of usage.

Either way, the interpretation is consistent.

[QUOTE]And again i do not care what you personally translate it as! And you have asked me to read vaishnava commentaries on ramayana. thanks for the suggestion but sorry i can't take it. Ramayana is not a vaishnava property, Sri Rama and Vishnu are also not a copyright of vaishnavas. they are equally worshippable for all hindus. And i like impartial translations instead of secetarian translations. Your secetarian commentaries have always tried to supress truths and elevate falses. so can't follow your suggestion, sorry![/QUOTE]

LMAO, you take one commentary as authoritative and then say that we are sectarian for following other commentaries. This is hilarious. You are trying to refute us evil vaishnavas, who have such wicked and crooked minds!! So, I suggest you take Vaishnava commentaries to refute us.

We interpret sAyakam dhanu as 'he gave away the bow along with the arrows'.

[QUOTE]shankara, madhawa, ramanuja had foreseen myself to be the right person to analyze that hehehe. Well, whether it looks errant nonsense to you or whatever, the fact is fact that none of the scriptures ever called vishnu as travelling through susumna nerve. that is always kundalini (tripurasundari) and hence my analysis is correct. If you donot like, then it's your problem. please keep your problem with you. I don't go by your opinions, i go by scriptures and my intellect. Thx![/QUOTE]

Here we have the proverbial 'patting oneself on the back'. Fact remains, what Shankara, Ramanuja, Madhva say is taken more seriously than what you have to say. Tripura Sundari is not nArAyaNa and the identification of nArAyaNa with Vishnu is as per pracIna vedAntA.

Posted by Unknown to Maha Pashupatastra at April 4, 2013 at 6:17 AM

Humble Bhagavata Bandhu has left a new comment on the post "Story of Subduing Shiva's Pride from Ramayana is F...":

There have been many non-Vaishnavite commentators on the Ramayana, including Shiva bhaktas like Nagoji Bhatta, Shiva Sahaya etc. None of them have identified this section about the battle between Shiva and Vishnu as bogus! Somehow that is apparent to you!!

The claims made by you sir, the blog's author, are ludicrous and can be demolished easily.

The name "nArAyaNa" cannot be interpreted etymologically, and can ONLY be used to denote Shankha Chakra Dhari Vishnu, since as per grammar the name can only be used as a proper noun. Only if it was "nArAyana" and not "nArAyaNa" you could interpret it as a common noun etymologically. This is because of the rule "pUrvapadAt saJjyAyAM agaH" (8.4.3) identified by Panini in his Ashtadhyayi.

This point has been accepted by even non-Vaishnavites such as Bhanuji Dikshita (who, btw, is the disciple of Bhattoji Dikshita, in turn a disciple of Appayya Dikshita) in his treatise Ramasrami on Amarasimha's Amarakosha. (look in this treatise where the name "nArAyaNa" occurs as one of the names of Vishnu). Much more important, the point has been accepted by another non-Vaishnavite, Bhatta Bhaskara, a commentator on the Vedas, who lived before the time of Ramanuja (see Bhatta Bhaskara's Bhashyam on Purusha Suktam section of Taittiriya Aranyaka 3.12).

Hence, it is quite well established that "nArAyaNa" refers only to Shankha-chakra dhAri viShNu and none else.

You quote Shankaracharya as an authority. You will benefit to know that the authentic works of Shankara are his Bhashyas, and not Stutis like the Laharis, which were authored by later-day Advaitins after the 15th century and propagated in Shankara's name. Proof? Because none of the Advaitic commentators between 8th and 15th centuries have even touched these texts. They invariably quote only from his Upanishad, Brahma Sutra, Gita, and Vishnu Sahasranama Bhashyas only. This may not be accepted by Mutts and the lay people, but both Indian and Western scholarship accepts this. Even a child reading Shankara's Bhashyams would identify Adi Shankarar as a pure Vaishnava only.

Sri Shankara, while rejecting Pashupata/Saiva/Maheshwara matham categorically (Brahma Sutra Bhashyam 2.2.37-41), pauses to concede that the Upasana parts of Pancharatra matham (specificically he cites Ananya Bhakti) are perfectly acceptable for Vedantins such as himself. Note that this is the only instance (2.2.42-45) where the Acharya concedes merit to any other religious/philosophical system.

It is the same Shankara Acharya who proclaims in the Gita Bhashya (9.25) that Vaishnavas (Shankaracharya specifically uses the word "Vaishnavas" here) attain to the highest state of liberation, while the worshippers of other devatas receive comparitively petty fruits.

And in the same Gita Bhashya Shankara explains Gita 18.61 as "IshvaraH IshanashIlaH nArAyaNAkhyaH (one known by the name 'nArAyaNa')", while you interpret it as Siva! Thus your interpretation is not acceptable even to Sri Shankara Acharya, who you proudly proclaim is Siva's avataram!!

(contd. in next post)

Posted by Humble Bhagavata Bandhu to Maha Pashupatastra at April 4, 2013 at 6:06 AM

Unknown has left a new comment on the post "Story of Subduing Shiva's Pride from Ramayana is F...":

[QUOTE]Jivatma is verily shiva". You need to understand the difference between these phrases. I don't know which acharya first propagated this bogus theory of shiva being a liberated jiva and all such nonsense; but know from me that none of the standard scriptures support that view. shiva is verily the parabrahman, the supreme lord.

Well, for your verse which stated shiva didn't exist at the time of pralaya, may i request you to read my narayana suktam article completely? i have already refuted that verse and explained what it means. And regarding narayana being a proper noun or a verb or an adjective, i don't care what part of speech it is, but one thing i can tell you is narayana has several meanings and yes it definitely refers to vishnu but the narayana sukta doesn't praise vishnu there narayana is the name of goddess tripurasudnari.[/QUOTE]

Oh, Jivatma is Shiva alright. However, the Shiva is not pArvati pati, but as per vishnu sahasranama, 'sarvam sarva shivas sthanur', it is nArAyaNa.

And no more of that tripura sundari nonsense. Your so called 'narayana suktam commentary' is a fail. Everyone from Adi Shankara till recent vedantins know that nArAyaNa is Vishnu. I won't even deign to answer that.

[QUOTE]ven if for time being i assume that they really fought and then also the reason why shiva got defeated is because shiva gave a boon to narayana saying he would be invulnerable to every weapon and he also said that even if he ever has to fight against shiva then he would be victorious.it exists in mahabharata. so it is shiva's mercy that vishnu would win whenever he has to fight with him. Vedas cleary declare that rudra is unconquerable, and he overpowers his enemies in battle. And if you still want to say ramayana story (which contradicts vedas) is true, then ramayana story needs to be rejected as anti-vedic. Now coming back to tripura-samhara, Vishnu misled the asuras and their wives so how does that make shiva inferior? Staff always does the actual hands-on work but always reports to the supervisor. vishnu helping shiva cannot be a yardstick to call shiva as inferior. Also, i have told you above that vishnu was not the arrow tip he was just the shaft/stem, arrow tip was agni and agni is rudra alone.

There is no logical reason behind calling a purana tamasic. you people are fond of rejecting shaiva puranas as tamasic because they are threat to your beliefs. other than that there is no reason to categorize puranas with gunas. Your satvik purana bhagawatam itself is bogus one, and you are pointing a finger at shiva related texts, huh![/QUOTE]

That which contradicts Veda is tamasic. The tamasa puranas like shiva, vayu purana, etc have not been considered pramanika from the time of adi shankara till madhusudhana saraswati. So pracIna tradition is honored here.

Vishnu being supreme is not a belief. It is a fact based on veda.

The anusasainika parva containing shiva sahasranama has not been commented upon by anybody. Hence, shiva sahasranama is an interpolation. Only Vishnu sahasranama has been commented on. Hence, it is authentic. Nobody prior to 16th century has even referenced shiva sahasranama. If it had existed, shaivites before 16th century would have quoted it.

Posted by Unknown to Maha Pashupatastra at April 4, 2013 at 6:19 AM

Unknown has left a new comment on the post "Story of Subduing Shiva's Pride from Ramayana is F...":

[QUOTE]Well, i don't follow kaliyugi saints and their logic. i go by scriptures. hence i respect "ranga ramanuja muni ji's" opinion, but that's just his opinion and not a fact! Several acharyas came in kaliyuga and expressed several opinions, but none of their opinions are acceptable if they contradict scriptures or words of ancient sages. ranga ramanuja ji cannot propose a theory different from what's there in scriptures. Kaivalya upanishad states that tripura is sthoola, sukshma, karana dehas and the lord who sports within them is shiva and he liberates jiva by destroying those tripuras. The three gunas are not tripuras. And for your kind information, the arrow tip was NOT vishnu; vishnu was just the shaft/stem of the arrow, the actual hood (point) was agni which destroyed the tripura. And again agni is none other than rudra. You'll not understand this but still let me state - it again shows "agni somAtmakam jagat" principle and it again glorifies uma-maheshwara tatwam alone.[/QUOTE]

Well, it doesn't matter what opinion you follow. As I said, I don't mind you calling Rudra as supreme so long as you stop foisting unfounded claims on Vaishnavas.

The shastras indicate that Vishnu was the arrow and Agni was the tip. In other cases, it says Agni was the arrow and Vishnu was the tip. It does not change the meaning. Agni refers to sacrifice. Let me explain once again.

The vedas are the chariot, meaning Shastra jnAnam is required. Brahma is the charioteer, meaning, he is acharyan who guides the Jivatma. As Brahma is senior to Rudra, it is appropriate. The bow is sometimes referred to as mandara, at other places as time and so on. The bowstring is the pranava. The poles of the chariot are the directions. All these refer to the accessories for the upasana. Such upasanas are aimed at destroying samsara. What is samsara? it is caused by prakrti also known as maya, which consists of sattva, rajas and tamas. And in the tripura samhara, the asura maya builds the three cities which are the sattcva, rajas and tamas.

Agni is the sacrifice, ie, the offering of 'namaha' essential to upasana. The arrow, or its tip, is the Parabrahman Vishnu, without whose grace, the Upasana cannot be completed. The other acts of Vishnu, such as misleading the asuras, taking away their punya, removing the rejuvenating well, etc show the grace of parabrahman in making the environment conducive for the jivatma to perform upasanam.

Shiva is the jivatma known as haran, who enjoys prakrti, who shoots the arrow, ie, performs upasana with the small act of releasing the arrow.

Posted by Unknown to Maha Pashupatastra at April 4, 2013 at 6:17 AM

Unknown has left a new comment on the post "Story of Subduing Shiva's Pride from Ramayana is F...":

[QUOTE]Congratulations to you for having written a commentary on rudram first anuvaka. At personal level i can congratulate you and can say good job! But at professional level i am sorry to say that your udnerstanding of rudram being a hymn to narayana is totally wrong![/QUOTE]

Rudra simply means one who destroys samsara. The Vishnu Sahasranama contains these names - 'RudrO bahushirA babhrU', 'Svayambhu Shambhur Aditya', 'IshAna prAnada prAnah', 'AdidevO mahAdevO', etc.

So, these names indicate Vishnu only. And Vaishnava Scholars have interpreted Rudram with perfect grammatical usage to refer to nArAyaNa only.

[QUOTE]In mahabharata veda vyasa and sri krishna have indicated rudram being a hymn of lord shiva in 3 instances. I would go by their words rather than following your "opinion" unless you want to say you are greater scholar than vyasa and sri krishna.[/QUOTE]

The mahabhArata incident involving Arjuna and Krishna chanting Satarudriyam to Rudra is not at all contradictory. As Krishna mentions in the Santi Parva, whenever Maheswara (pArvati pati) is worshipped, it is only nArAyaNa, the antaryamin of mahEswara who is worshipped. Furthermore, as Krishna is Parabrahman, all weapons of all devas get their strength from Krishna. So, worshipping Pasupatastra with Satarudriyam is also not a problem.

Even in Tripura Samharam, Karna Parva (or is it Drona Parva), it is said that Rudra's bowstring was made untouchable by the asuras. This was because Bhava (Rudra) had Vishnu as his inner self, ie, antaryamin.

The Satarudriyam involves asking Bhagavan to shed his Ghora rupam (Vishwarupam) and attain a peaceful form, ie, as shanka chakra gada pAni, which is Aghora (not terrifying) and shantamaya. This is in accordance with the 11th chapter of Gita.

[QUOTE]You said, "vilohita (brahma; he is red because of rajO gunam)!" LOL...I think you didn't read puranas where brahma is depicted to have the same color as lakshmi, pink of golden complexion. Brahma is not red!! If i go by your logic of red means rajas then narayana/vishnu being black/dark complexioned must be a god full of tamo-gunam! :-)[/QUOTE]

The same Brahma is also said to have red color because of RajO gunam elsewhere in Srimad Bhagavatam (I believe the verse is 10.3.20). It is also mentioned elsewhere that Bhagavan Narasimha donned the red skin of Brahma as a metaphor to describe his skin color.

Red is symbolic of rajO gunam.

And your comment on nArAyaNa is quite irrelevant. Bhagavan has appeared in many colors, with black being his preferred color. Know why? Its actually because black is symbolic of tamas. But Bhagavan's blackness is not prakrti made, but a body assumed of suddha sattvam (pure jnanam). This quality of bhagavan, ie, appearing in a color perceived as negative is to show people that even the base things become transformed in association with him. This quality is called agatitagatanasamarthyam and is mentioned as 'Aho Ratre' in Purusha Suktam - Day and Night are at his sides, ie, he can combine opposites!

Posted by Unknown to Maha Pashupatastra at April 4, 2013 at 6:17 AM

Unknown has left a new comment on the post "Story of Subduing Shiva's Pride from Ramayana is F...":

Addendum:

I forgot to address this in my previous posts:

You mentioned: "agni somAtmakam jagat....glorifies uma-maheshwara tatwam alone".

I say: Wrong again. As I mentioned before, 'Agni' in the Tripura Samharam incident is the offering of 'namaha'. The Upanishads describe the jivAtmA as 'somarAja' (panchAgni vidyA, chandogya upanishad). 'SomarAjA' means he who enjoys 'sOma', and 'sOma' refers to the objects of enjoyment.

The jagath is filled with agni and sOma, ie, sacrifice and objects of enjoyment. And you have convieniently omitted the next line in the mahAbhArata which states that the jagath is filled with Vishnu, who pervades all this and hence, agni and sOma as well.

So, Agni refers to namaha and sOma refers to the articles of sacrifice, or the objects of enjoyment procured by the upAsaNa. This includes wealth, long age, etc. which are all ancillories needed for performing the upAsaNa.

This is the meaning of SOma in this context.

Next thing - sOma also has another meaning of 'umApati', which is not intended as the meaning of Tripura samharam incident. But 'umApati' is not only the name of pArvati pati. umApati is the name of Narasimha, along with Sankara, PinAkI, Nilalohita as per the Tapaniya Upanishad. And in case anybody thinks the Narasimha TapanIya is of recent origin, let me assure you that it has been quoted and referenced by the great VedAnta Desikan, kavi tArkika simham, the acharyan of Vishishtadvaita, in the 13th century in his work, kAmAshikashtakam.

So even 'sOma' as it occurs in, for instance, the satarudriyam, is not a monopoly of pArvati pati.

Posted by Unknown to Maha Pashupatastra at April 4, 2013 at 9:01 AM

Humble Bhagavata Bandhu has left a new comment on the post "Story of Subduing Shiva's Pride from Ramayana is F...":

It is indeed Adi Shankarar who, in his Upanishad Bhashyams, in three important places identified Brahman as Lord Vishnu:

"IdRgIshvaro nArAyaNAkhyaH" - Brihadaranyaka Upanishad, 3.7.3

"eSha devo viShNur anantaH... sarva bhUtAnAM antarAtmA" - Mundaka, 2.1.4

"viShNOr vyApanasheelasya brahmaNo vAsudevAkhyasya paramam utkRShTam padam sthAnam" - Katha, 1.3.9

Thus Shankarar has stamped his Upanishad Bhasyam with the three namas found in Narayana Gayatri, especially where the Upanishad does not specify the name of the Parabrahman, thus showing that the devatA of nArAyaNa gAyatri is indeed parabrahman.

Shankara argues clearly in the first Chapter of Brahma sutra that the Saguna Brahman, the Highest Lord paramAtmA cannot be a deity who was created at the beginning of the Kalpam. He specifically rules out the sUrya devatA from the position of the Highest Lord (as an aside: this ruling out of Surya devata means Shankara could not have accepted Saura matham, thus debunking the theory that he was "Shanmata Sthapaka"). In bRhadAraNyaka Upanishad bhAShya, the same Shankara says that Lord Rudra, the Pasupati, was created by Brahman (1.4.10-11). Again the same AchArya says in Brahma Sutra Bhashya third chapter that Rudra is a receiver of a boon from Sanatkumara (3.3.32). Putting this together, Adi Shankara's original matham cannot have taken Rudra for Highest Lord!

You quite often quote verses in current editions of Mahabharatam, which no Acharya before has used. Here is what all Acharyas, including Shankara (see his Vishnu Sahasranama Commentary) quote from the Mahabharata and Harivamsa:

"After having analyzed all the shastras critically many times, I can say for sure this one rule -- that nArAyaNa is always to be meditated upon" (AlODya sarva shAstrANi vicArya ca punaH punaH idam ekam suniShpannam dhyeyon nArAyaNaH sadA)

"There is no shAstra higher than the Veda and there is no deity higher than Keshava". (vedAt shAstram param nAsti na daivam keshavAt param)

"In the Vedas, Ramayana, and Mahabharata, Vishnu is alone proclaimed as the highest everywhere" (vede rAmAyaNe puNye bhArate ca bharataRShabhaH Adau madhye tathA cAntau viShNuH sarvatra gIyate) note: hence there is no dOsham in identifying Vishnu as the upAsya devatA in rudram, shvetAshvatara upaniShad etc.

The first and last verse above have been quoted by Sri Adi Shankara in Vishnu Sahasranama Bhashyam.

In the Mahabharata, there is a samvAda between Shiva and Brahma about the nature of Parabrahman. Here Brahma addresses Shiva as his son, and tells Shiva that "the Supreme Brahman cannot be known by me, or by you. He is the Lord of all beings" and goes to identify the Supreme Purusha as Vishnu, Narayana. This part has been quoted by Ramanuja in Vedartha Sangraha, and more importantly by Shankara in Brahma Sutra Bhashyam 2.1.1.

If you want challenge me to give proofs of the above citations (with exact references) I can do the same! You don't even have to go hunting for the books, I can scan the pages and send to you!!

Posted by Humble Bhagavata Bandhu to Maha Pashupatastra at April 4, 2013 at 6:06 AM

Unknown has left a new comment on the post "Story of Subduing Shiva's Pride from Ramayana is F...":

The Rudra mentioned in the Satarudriyam and the Svetasvatara Upanishad is none other than nArAyaNa, who is Vishnu. 'RudrO bhaushira babhrur' in the sahasranama clearly states this. Rudra means, 'one who destroys samsara', 'one who makes others cry with happiness on experiencing his gunas'. The same Rudra is hailed as Girishanta, which means 'Creator or Girisha (shiva)'. Here, 'anta' refers to limit, which is etymologically interpreted as the source or cause of Girisha.

No matter, Shiva can grant boons. But in the same mahabharata, santi parva, Krishna explains that nobody grants boons to Vishnu and that he bows down to his devotees and takes boons out of his own volition. He, by his own supreme will, lowers himself to accept the boons of others. It is like a mother condescending to her child. This gunam is called 'SousIlyam', it is the purport of the Rudram mantras like 'avasarpati nilagrIvo vilohita', he descends (avasarpati) as himself (vishnu), as the antaryamin of nilagriva and vilohita (rudra and brahma). He can be seen by cowherds and all beings, says this mantra. This is called sousIlyam.

So much for that.

Posted by Unknown to Maha Pashupatastra at April 4, 2013 at 6:19 AM

Santosh Kumar Ayalasomayajula has left a new comment on the post "Story of Subduing Shiva's Pride from Ramayana is F...":

Dear friend,

Mahabharata defines Narayana as follows in two chapters

"In ancient times I called the waters by the name of Nara; and because the waters have ever been my ayana or home, therefore have I been called Narayana (the water-homed)". (MBH.Vana Parva)

"The waters have been called by the name of Nara, for they sprang from Him called Nara. And since the waters in former times, were my refuge, I am, therefore, called by the name of Narayana". (MBH.Santi Parva)

So, it means "that entity whose resting place (ayana) is waters (nara) is narayana". My definition of Narayana as tripurasudnari is also in similar lines as "that entity whose direction (ayana) is nara is narayana and is nothing but tripurasudnari". If my definition is erroneous then even the Mahabharata definition of narayana should be erroneous because both follow the same logic.

Secondly, the Vedic grammar is non-paninian and preceeds Panini in time. so, I don't think it is correct to apply Panini grammar on Vedic verses. thirdly, even srikantha acharya seems to have believed the way my thought process goes. However, I don't know much about his works so kindly don't ask me to quote from his works.

I quote acharyas only in those instances where they remain in sync with vedas and other scriptures. Whatever shankara might have said about Vishnu as brahman, I may or may not completely agree with him. so, your quotes from his bhashyam I may not buy. for me the first authority is scriptures; an dthen only come acharyas.

You are bombarding me with too many missiles at once; I have very less free time these days, busy at work. Wait for 2-3 years, and then you'll find some more articles from me which would clear all your misconceptions. that's what I can say at present. I've no time to enter a never ending debate now. 2-3 years later (hopefully I get time to complete my works), then there would not be any need for debates.

Posted by Santosh Kumar Ayalasomayajula to Maha Pashupatastra at April 4, 2013 at 9:25 PM

Santosh Kumar Ayalasomayajula has left a new comment on the post "Story of Subduing Shiva's Pride from Ramayana is F...":

I have no interest in reading proofs from your "vaishnavite-mahabharata" :-) I have the Mahabharata with myself and I can read that on my own. your say on Mahabharata as "current versions" from which I quote is baseless. all these claims are originated from your cults who have customized the Mahabharata in their own taste and removed/altered all the non-vaishnavite portions. it's your books which are unauthentic, not what I follow.

Your versions of Mahabharata, Ramayana and puranas are not followed outside of your cult. And if you cannot accept the version of Mahabharata that everyone (excluding vaishnavas) follow, then there is no point debating with you. our sources are different hence we can never come to a concensus.

therefore saying "good bye" to you is the only intelligent thought I feel.

Posted by Santosh Kumar Ayalasomayajula to Maha Pashupatastra at April 4, 2013 at 9:31 PM

Santosh Kumar Ayalasomayajula has left a new comment on the post "Story of Subduing Shiva's Pride from Ramayana is F...":

I am not a vaishnava that is true, but as I said, Vishnu is not your personal property. I have full rights to love him. I do not need your permissions or a "U" mark stamp on my forehead for worshipping him.

OK? I do not need to explain you my love for Lakshmi-narayana. but at the same time know that I cannot tolerate insult to shiva.

Posted by Santosh Kumar Ayalasomayajula to Maha Pashupatastra at April 4, 2013 at 9:34 PM

Santosh Kumar Ayalasomayajula has left a new comment on the post "Story of Subduing Shiva's Pride from Ramayana is F...":

That's what! you guys analyze Vedic hymns by using Vishnu sahasranama a smriti portion huh??

Did any of your ahcaryas ever do abhishekam on Vishnu's idol while chanting rudram? no!

Those acharyas had their duty to establish/elevate Vishnu bhakti so they used all such tools to manipulate meanings and to establish Vishnu's lordship. but none of them ever worshipped Vishnu with rudram.

Posted by Santosh Kumar Ayalasomayajula to Maha Pashupatastra at April 4, 2013 at 9:37 PM

Santosh Kumar Ayalasomayajula has left a new comment on the post "Story of Subduing Shiva's Pride from Ramayana is F...":

commentaries are not a yardstick to judge what is authentic and what is not. in that case many texts have not been commented upon, that doesn't mean all of them are unauthentic. Anushashana parva's shiva sahasranama is very much authentic and I don't believe in the commentators and their commentary logic what you stated. Moreover, interpolating a chapter at the end of a book is easy but it would get caught if you instert a chapter at the beginning of the book since you would have to move the rest of the chapters by n+1 number, whereas if you add a new chapter towards the end the no. of chapters need to be moved would be less hence less chances of getting identified as interpolation.

therefore shiva sahasranama which happens to be in the 13th chapter (beginng of the huge book anushasana parva) is logically more valid than the Vishnu sahasranama which happens to come after 100s of chapters (towards the end).

Posted by Santosh Kumar Ayalasomayajula to Maha Pashupatastra at April 4, 2013 at 9:45 PM

Santosh Kumar Ayalasomayajula has left a new comment on the post "Story of Subduing Shiva's Pride from Ramayana is F...":

[quote]Here we have the proverbial 'patting oneself on the back'[unquote]

hehehe...don't you understand what has been said in jest as a joke ?

Posted by Santosh Kumar Ayalasomayajula to Maha Pashupatastra at April 4, 2013 at 10:02 PM

Humble Bhagavata Bandhu has left a new comment on the post "Story of Subduing Shiva's Pride from Ramayana is F...":

I quote acharyas only in those instances where they remain in sync with vedas and other scriptures. Whatever shankara might have said about Vishnu as brahman, I may or may not completely agree with him. so, your quotes from his bhashyam I may not buy. for me the first authority is scriptures; an dthen only come acharyas.

Amusing, you believe you are smarter and much more learned when it comes to interpreting scriptures, than the veda bhAShyakAras and even Adi Shankara! (which means that you are smarter than your own Lord Shiva) Very nice to know! What do you say for this *authentic* (unlike your references) Harivamsa verse quoted by authorities: "vede rAmAyaNe puNye bhArate ca bharataRShabhaH, Adau madhye tathA ca ante viShNuH sarvatra gIyate"? Are you smarter than Veda Vyasa?

"In ancient times I called the waters by the name of Nara; and because the waters have ever been my ayana or home, therefore have I been called Narayana (the water-homed)". (MBH.Vana Parva)

"The waters have been called by the name of Nara, for they sprang from Him called Nara. And since the waters in former times, were my refuge, I am, therefore, called by the name of Narayana". (MBH.Santi Parva)

So, it means "that entity whose resting place (ayana) is waters (nara) is narayana". My definition of Narayana as tripurasudnari is also in similar lines as "that entity whose direction (ayana) is nara is narayana and is nothing but tripurasudnari". If my definition is erroneous then even the Mahabharata definition of narayana should be erroneous because both follow the same logic.

I didn't say the Mahabharata definition is erroneous. It goes only as far as to give the reason behind the naming. It doesn't show how "nArAyana" became "nArAyaNa", which can be explained only by grammar.

Panini only codified the earlier Vedic grammar that is one of the six Vedangas. He didn't concoct things in the sense that you understand.

Srikara/Srikanta's Bhashya is plagiarism of Ramanuja Sri Bhashya, with Vishnu forcefully replaced by Shiva out of envy. Proof: the book "Srikantha Samalochana" which even Smarthas have accepted.

Good to know you finally have been forced to renounce Adi Shankaracharya also. Let me now show that you now even have to renounce Appaya Dikshita also.

Appayya Dikshita was converted into Vaishnavism (he tried to reconcile Advaita, Dvaita, and Vishishtadvaita and wrote treatises on all three) later in his life. Proof: see Siddhanta Lesha Sangraha, a treatise in Advaita Vedanta written by Dikshita, where he has identified Lord Sri Rama as parabrahman (in contrast to his earlier works such as Shivatattva viveka). Bhanuji Dikshita, whose parama-guru was Appayya Dikshita writes in his Grammatical treatise "rAmAshramI" that nArAyaNa can only refer to shankha-chakra-dhAri viShNu.

All Vedanta darshanas followed Vaishnavism as theology, until Appayya Dikshita's time. Purely because of this reason, Meykkandar (principal Saiva Siddhanta Acharya of South India) in 13th century rejected Brahma Sutras and wrote his own Saiva Siddhanta Sutras.

Posted by Humble Bhagavata Bandhu to Maha Pashupatastra at April 4, 2013 at 9:57 PM

Santosh Kumar Ayalasomayajula has left a new comment on the post "Story of Subduing Shiva's Pride from Ramayana is F...":

Good! I would still request you to visit my site back after 2-3 years. why hurry? I am confident that I would not die for the next 3 years, and am also sure that you would also be there. so why hurry? let's see what I have to say from scriptures.

let me ramble first and then let's discuss if need be:-)

Posted by Santosh Kumar Ayalasomayajula to Maha Pashupatastra at April 4, 2013 at 10:08 PM

Santosh Kumar Ayalasomayajula has left a new comment on the post "Story of Subduing Shiva's Pride from Ramayana is F...":

[quote]Appayya Dikshita was converted into Vaishnavism[unquote]

ok. let me also try my best to support shaivism, and let me learn on my own at the end what's right and what's wrong. why should i follow others? they might also be erroneous. if i happen to reveal right things about shiva that's great, and if at all i happen to udnerstand by my own that vishnu is the ultimate reality, that is also fine with me since vishnu is also my father. Let me go my way and realize the truths on my own. why to refer to other's experiences?

Posted by Santosh Kumar Ayalasomayajula to Maha Pashupatastra at April 4, 2013 at 10:21 PM

Humble Bhagavata Bandhu has left a new comment on the post "Story of Subduing Shiva's Pride from Ramayana is F...":

[QUOTE]

Let me go my way and realize the truths on my own. why to refer to other's experiences?

[UNQUOTE]

Well said. You are welcome to test all paths and decide which one is best for you. But please, show some humility, at least until you are educated enough in scriptures, bhAShyas, and religious history, by not calling other Acharyas' pramANas (especially Srimad Bhagavatam for which) as "bogus" etc.

Posted by Humble Bhagavata Bandhu to Maha Pashupatastra at April 4, 2013 at 10:38 PM

Humble Bhagavata Bandhu has left a new comment on the post "Story of Subduing Shiva's Pride from Ramayana is F...":

Oh really?? I am quoting from "customized" Mahabharata? I give you the references from your own current versions, where two of these verses have survived the hands of interpolators and vandals:

(2)

satyaM satyaM punaH satyamuddhR^itya bhujamuchyate l

vedashAstrAtparaM nAsti na daivaM keshavAtparam ll 2-15

http://mahabharata-resources.org/harivamsa/sheshadharma/sheshadharma-chap2.html

(3)

vede rAmAyaNe punye bhArate bharatarShabha |

Adau chAnte cha madhye cha hariH sarvatra gIyate ||3-132-95

http://mahabharata-resources.org/harivamsa/bhavishyaparva/hv_3_132_mpr.html

(Vishnu has been replaced by hariH, which is no harm).

And here is the most important one: http://www.sacred-texts.com/hin/m12/m12c050.htm (Mahabharata translation by Kisari Mohan Ganguli), from which I quote

[Quote]

"While the four-faced Brahma of great intelligence was seated there, his son Mahadeva, who had sprung from his forehead encountered him one day in course of his wanderings through the universe."

"In days of yore, the Three-eyed Siva endued with puissance and high Yoga, while proceeding along the sky, beheld Brahma seated on that mountain and, therefore, dropped down quickly on its top."

"With a cheerful heart he presented him before his progenitor and worshipped his feet. Beholding Mahadeva prostrated at his feet, Brahma took him up with his left hand. Having thus raised Mahadeva up, Brahma, that puissant and one Lord of all creatures, then addressed his son, whom he met after a long time, in these words."

"The Grandsire said, 'Welcome art thou, O thou of mighty arms. By good luck I see thee after such a long time come to my presence. I hope, O son, that everything is right with thy penances and thy Vedic studies and recitations. Thou art always observant of the austerest penances. Hence I ask thee about the progress and well-being of those penances of thine!'"

"Rudra said, 'Self-born thou art. Many are the Purushas that have been created by thee. Others again, O Brahma, are being created by thee. The Infinite Purusha, however, of whom thou speakest, is one and single. Who is that foremost of Purushas, O Brahma, that is being meditated by thee? Great is the curiosity I feel on this point. Do thou kindly dispel the doubt that has taken possession of my mind.

(continued in the next post)

Posted by Humble Bhagavata Bandhu to Maha Pashupatastra at April 4, 2013 at 10:33 PM

Humble Bhagavata Bandhu has left a new comment on the post "Story of Subduing Shiva's Pride from Ramayana is F...":

continuing here: http://www.sacred-texts.com/hin/m12/m12c051.htm

"'Brahma said,--'Listen, O son, as to how that Purusha is indicated. He is eternal and immutable. He is undeteriorating and immeasurable. He pervades all things. 1 O best of all creatures, that Purusha cannot be seen by thee, or me, or others. Those that are endued with the understanding and the senses but destitute of self-restraint and tranquility of soul cannot obtain a sight of him. The Supreme Purusha is said to be one that can be seen with the aid of knowledge alone. Though divested of body, He dwells in every body. Though dwelling, again, in bodies, He is never touched by the acts accomplished by those bodies. He is my Antaratma (inner soul). He is thy inner soul. He is the all-seeing Witness dwelling within all embodied creatures and engaged in marking their acts. No one can grasp or comprehend him at any time."

"The learned speak of him as the one Purusha. That one eternal Being deserves the appellation of Mahapurusha (the great supreme Purusha)."

"The person who realises that inconceivable Purusha and comprehends his subtile existence in the quadruple form of Aniruddha, Pradyumna, Sankarshana, and Vasudeva, and who, in consequence of such comprehension, attains to perfect tranquillity of heart, succeeds in entering into and identifying himself with that one auspicious Purusha. Some persons possessed of learning speak of him as the supreme soul. Others regarded him as the one soul. A third class of learned men describe him as the soul. 2 The truth is that he who is the Supreme Soul is always divested of attributes. He is Narayana. He is the universal soul, and he is the one Purusha."

[End Quote]

I hope this is enough!

Posted by Humble Bhagavata Bandhu to Maha Pashupatastra at April 4, 2013 at 10:34 PM

Unknown has left a new comment on the post "Story of Subduing Shiva's Pride from Ramayana is F...":

[QUOTE]Did any of your ahcaryas ever do abhishekam on Vishnu's idol while chanting rudram? no![/QUOTE]

Highly errorneous. My own acharyas have indeed referenced the Rudram, as can be seen in srI ranga rAmAnuja muni's vyAkhyAnam on the svetAsvatArA.

Furthermore, who told you Rudram is not chanted in Vishnu temples? I have myself heard the Rudram being chanted for SrI pArthasArathy in Thiruvallikeni along with various other suktams during major utsavams. The 1st rk of Rudram talks about SrI rAmA's anger at the ocean king itself!

In addition, it is also a misconception that our acharyas do not use the name of Shiva to address nArAyaNan. In the works of Vedanta Desika, you will come across such names being addressed in praise of nArAyaNa. Lokacharya, another great acharya, repeatedly uses only the name 'Iswara' to address nArAyaNa in his works.

Although the devata of the Rudram may be pArvati pati, the mantras and the qualities described by the mantras address the nArAyaNa indwelling in pArvati pati. This indwelling nArAyaNa is also called 'Rudra', 'Sankara', 'Nilalohita', etc. Jaimini, the disciple of Veda vyAsA states 'sAkshAt api', meaning that the mantras are *directly* (note the word *sAkshAt*) addressed to nArAyaNa.

In the case of the mahAbhAratA quoting Satarudriyam for pArvati pati, it is necessary to use the concept of body-soul analogy expounded by the brihadAranyaka which states 'yasya AtmA sarIram', ie, the universe and the jivas are the body of Brahman. So, just as a name 'jack' denotes both jack's body and soul, all names denote bhagavan nArAyaNa only.

So, any prayers to the pasupatAstra go the indweller of that astra namely nArAyaNa. Any prayers to Shiva go to Keshava, the indweller of Shiva, who has Shiva as his body. The mantras like Rudram directly address Vishnu. This is what is explained by Krishna in the Santi Parva where he clearly states that when he worshipped MahEswara (pArvati pati), he was worshipping the nArAyaNa within MahEswara (ie, himself) using the Satarudriyam mantras. Krishna also states that nobody can give Vishnu boons and that Vishnu will not bow to anyone unless it is of his own will.

The Shiva Sahasranama is not found in the ancient manuscripts of mahAbhArata. Whereas, the Vishnu SahasranAmA is found in all manuscripts and has multiple commentaries. If the Shiva SahasranAmA had existed, so many Shaivites would have commented or even referenced to it. But they haven't. This has and will always be the yardstick to judge the authenticity of a particular work.

Sarvam SrI KrishnArpanam astu.

Posted by Unknown to Maha Pashupatastra at April 4, 2013 at 11:00 PM

Santosh Kumar Ayalasomayajula has left a new comment on the post "Story of Subduing Shiva's Pride from Ramayana is F...":

hmmm I know these chapters from MBH since I follow KMG MBH. However, the system of vasudeva, sankarshana, pradyumna, aniruddha is something which is pancharatra type and is not authentic. seems that you have also read shankara bhashyas. then you might have read that in brahma sutras shankara rejects the fourfold expansion theory of this system saying there cannot be four eshwaras.

this system of fourfold Vishnu expansion is not even present in shruti. so I don't believe in these chapters. Vishnu is only one and he is narayana, his names are anirudha, pradyumna etc..but I dislike this system where people create new separate gods out of his names. even if that were to be true then also after death I wouldn't like to go to that abode where I would get confused to know which Vishnu is which Vishnu and so on..all are of same appearance but hold weapons differently in cyclic fashion et. all such stories I have heard many times and they are not convincing to me. there is only one Vishnu and his names are all these, that's it! and any theory which states him to be of fourfold form etc., is not available in vedas and Upanishads and also in VR and also stands incorrect in terms of logic.

anyway, "yad bhavam tad roopam", so I don't have any issues with what others follow, but this system is not correct. therefore the chapters what you quoted are most probably interpolations since santi parva of Mahabharata contains lot many interpolations even this is called out by KMG.

Posted by Santosh Kumar Ayalasomayajula to Maha Pashupatastra at April 5, 2013 at 1:07 AM

Humble Bhagavata Bandhu has left a new comment on the post "Story of Subduing Shiva's Pride from Ramayana is F...":

How arbitrarily and conveniently you are able to deem certain portions of Mahabharata as inauthentic, but the portions that you like are authentic! Don't you see the bias in your own stance?

Again, you are wrong. vyUha concept occurs in Vishnu Sahasranama itself.

Yes, Adi Shankaracharya refutes the vyUha concept *as it is explained in the Pancharatra*, but he accepts the vyUha concept in his Vishnu Sahasranama Bhashya, for which he quotes vyAsa smRti as authority. "caturAtmA caturvyUhas caturdamShTrash caturbhujaH" goes Vishnu Sahasranama, a text praised by the Ayurvedic Charaka Samhita as one of the best stotras. How can this be un-vedic?

Amalananda Sarasvati, 13th century advaitin, respectfully disagrees from Sri Adi Shankara in his "Vedanta Kalpataru" (which is a commentary on "bhAmati" written by vAcaspati mishra) and defends pA~ncarAtra as 100% Vedic. Vedanta Kalpataru, btw, has a sub-commentary by Appaya Dikshita called "parimaLa".

Coming to Shankaracharya, he does not disagree that there can be four vyUhas. In his commentary the Acharya says:

"Concerning this system we remark that we do not intend to controvert the doctrine that Nârâyana, who is higher than the Undeveloped, who is the highest Self, and the Self of all, reveals himself by dividing himself in multiple ways; for various scriptural passages, such as 'He is onefold, he is threefold' (Kh. Up. VII, 26, 2)', teach us that the highest Self appears in manifold forms.".

Here Shankaracharya interprets Pancharatra text to be teaching jIvOtpatti. (Ramanuja, and even the later advaitin amalAnanda, disagree saying that the statements have to be taken in the "gauNa" sense).

Vishnu Purana, from which Shankara has quoted (and which has no interpolations, since we have commentaries on it intact, right from Sridhara Swami's time) also supports the four vyUha theory:

"To him who is one with true knowledge, who is and is not perceptible, I bow. Glory be to him, the lord Vásudeva, to Sankarshańa, to Pradyumna, and to Aniruddha 7." (Book V, Chapter 18).

(shrImad bhAgavatam also supports the four vyUha concept, but of course, you have deemed the whole text as bogus, so I am not quoting it.)

What more? Read sUrya siddhAnta, written by Vedantin/Astronomer AryabhaTa, who in the 12th chapter of his work, identifies puruSha sUkta as referring to Lord vAsudeva only. Here, AryabhaTa identifies the roles of two of the other three vyUhas, Sankarshana and Aniruddha in the creation:

12.12a: *vāsudevaH* paraṃ brahma tanmūrtiH puruṣaH paraH/

12.12b: avyakto nirguṇaH śāntaH pañcaviṃśāt paro +avyayaH//

12.13a: prakṛtyantargato devo bahir antaś ca sarvagaH/

12.13b: *saṅkarṣaṇo* +apaH sṛṣṭvādau tāsu vīryam avāsṛjat//

12.14a: tadaṇḍam abhavad dhaimaṃ sarvatra tamasāvṛtam/

12.14b: *tatrāniruddhaH* prathamaṃ vyaktībhūtaH sanātanaH//

This explanation is the same as you find in "Mudgala Upanishad" from which Adi Shankara has quoted a statement in his Taittiriya Upanishad bhAShya:

"We shall explain the Purusha-sukta... The glory of Vishnu is given in 'Etavan' (so much is his greatness). The same stanza states his four-fold nature. 'Tripad' etc., speaks of the glory of Aniruddha."

Mudgala Upanishad itself is thus 100% Vedic, and here you find the vyUha concept as well.

Posted by Humble Bhagavata Bandhu to Maha Pashupatastra at April 5, 2013 at 3:17 AM

Santosh Kumar Ayalasomayajula has left a new comment on the post "Story of Subduing Shiva's Pride from Ramayana is F...":

I didn't conveniently reject some portions from Mahabharata as per my comfort. the chapters what you quoted this vyuha theory from they encapsulate the topics on samkhya and yoga systems. And here is what Kisari mohan ganguly has to say about them in the beginning of santi parva itself.

"The Santi Parva is a huge interpolation in the Mahabharata, in the genre known as 'wisdom literature.' The narrative progression is placed on hold almost from the first page. Instead we get a long and winding recapitulation of Brahmanic lore, including weighty treatises on topics such as kingcraft, metaphysics, cosmology, geography, and mythology. There are discussions of the Sankya and Yoga philosophical schools, and mentions of Buddhism.". hence he says santi parva having these topics are interpolations.

therefore I said I don't accept those theories. again your Vishnu sahasranama is a smriti scripture and you cannot use it to analyze vedas which are shruti. actually vedas should be used to analyze puranas and other smritis. my style of analysis is to analyze smriti using shruti and when we do so, many puranic concepts get negated.

anyway, one thing I liked in you is you quote relevant references in your posts which is a best practice and it is what I follow in my articles so naturally I would like that even in opponents, good job.

Well, this discussion with you is very useful and adds to my learning, but as I stated earlier, I am too busy these days to find time out of work, so this discussion is wasting my time in that sense. Let god give me some free time and let some more articles come from my pen, many of the theories would get refuted. yeah I know people might not agree with me, but this is my duty that my antar-atman has assigned me, hence I would do that at the cost of anything.

See, we are not comparing apples with apples. the acharyas which you follow, I don't concur with their thoughts; so debate/discussion between us is fruitless and is a time waste for both of us. if you disagree with my articles, you may stop visiting this blog, and if you have patience to wait for 1-2 years, you'll see some nice reasoning done in some articles (upcoming ones). Hope to see a good bye note from you and not another "reply-inviting" post. hehe :-)

Posted by Santosh Kumar Ayalasomayajula to Maha Pashupatastra at April 5, 2013 at 3:59 AM

Unknown has left a new comment on the post "Story of Subduing Shiva's Pride from Ramayana is F...":

[quote] again your Vishnu sahasranama is a smriti scripture and you cannot use it to analyze vedas which are shruti. actually vedas should be used to analyze puranas and other smritis. my style of analysis is to analyze smriti using shruti and when we do so, many puranic concepts get negated.[/quote]

Again, more nonsense. We do not not use smriti to interpret the shruti (though there is nothing wrong in that). We interpret Shruti using smriti as a tool.

For the record, we do not need Vishnu Sahasranama to prove that the Rudra of Sri Rudram is NarayaNa. Considering that the mahOpanishad declares Rudra to be absent during pralaya (eko ha vai nArAyaNa asIt, na brahma nEshana), the nArAyaNopanishad declares Rudra to be born of nArAyaNa (nArAyaNat rudrO jAyatE), the name 'nArAyaNa' being a proper noun and the names like Rudra, Shiva being common nouns having general meanings like 'auspicious', 'one who destroys samsara', the conclusion is that it is well within grammatical and logical limits to attribute the names of Rudra, etc to nArAyaNa only.

Furthermore, the satapatha brAhmana declares this Rudra to be 'anapahatapapma', ie not cleansed of karmas when he was born to brahma. This new born requests Brahma to therefore give him names that would cleanse his karmas. Brahma gives him names like Rudra, Mahadeva, Isana, etc. This clearly shows that these names were pre-existent and applied to the supreme brahman before pArvati pati was born.

Even in nArAyaNa suktam, you come across terms like 'shivam achyutam', which confirms that such names belong to nArAyaNa, who is Vishnu only as per the Vishnu gAyatri.

The Vishnu SahasranAmA, is then, not the primary text, but merely a *CONFIRMATION* of this interpretation of shruti. Since it gives the names of nArAyaNa as Rudra, Shambhu, Shiva, etc. The only reason we resort to Vishnu Sahasranama is to show that our interpretation is supported by the ancient rsis as well.

And even if we first see the Vishnu SahasranAmA and then go on to interpret the shruti, there is nothing wrong with that. It will still be correct as opposed to interpretations that blindly search for 'Rudra', 'Shiva' and other such names in the Veda and jump on them to give wrong meanings that clash with other vAkyAs declaring the birth of pArvati pati.

Posted by Unknown to Maha Pashupatastra at April 5, 2013 at 5:59 AM

Santosh Kumar Ayalasomayajula has left a new comment on the post "Story of Subduing Shiva's Pride from Ramayana is F...":

See Mr. Unknown,

For the last time let me tell you, this narayana meaning based on grammatical thing is not there in Mahabharata. in Mahabharata the logic what has been used is same as what I have arrived at in my article. From narayana as Shakti, all the so called ambiguities get clarified (mhopanishad, narayanopanishad etc.). Evan himavan in purana hails devi as "I salute your that thousand headed form called narayana". so, my logic of narayana = tripurasudnari is not bogus one rather a hint of it exists in puranas itself. Whether you accept/deny it doesn't matter to me. You cannot prove that Vishnu travels through sushumna nerve using any scripture. it is always kundalini that does that. So, either accept my theory or stop blabbering, leave me alone and let me live in peace. secondly you have seen shatapatha br. but haven't seen the vedas which state rudra existed before brahma and he manifested again through brahma. brahma is hiranyagarbha which is nothing but this universe, so rudra's manifestation is nothing but his appearance within this universe. it has nothing to do with physical birth and he is unborn who appeared within this. so all your understanding about birth of rudra is bogus. I can explain but don't want to owing to less time with me.

Boss. know one thing, your opinions aren't going to change me. But my articles are going to always taste bitter since truths are bitter and we both come from different streams hence can't meet in common stream. therefore, I do not see any value add in continuing this discussion, so may I request you to move away and not waste mine and your time further?

Posted by Santosh Kumar Ayalasomayajula to Maha Pashupatastra at April 5, 2013 at 7:48 AM

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The anti-Vaishnavite’s motives made clear

You can see clearly above who made a spectacle of themselves in the debate. And you can see why our friend deleted the above posts. He found the following facts hard to digest:

  1. That Adi Shankara was a Vaishnava though philosophically an advaitin,

  1. That the section that is traditionally called "Mokshadharma" in the Mahabharata (and therefore, merely from its name a very authoritative section) identifies the supreme being as Vishnu only, and never as Shiva,

  1. That Adi Shankara has identified "Ishvara" in "IshvaraH sarva bhUtAnAM" as Lord Narayana only,

  1. That Adi Shankara has specifically used the term "Vaishnavas" in the Gita Bhashyas, and states that "The worshipers of other deities reach the realm of those other deities. Even though their effort in worshiping is the same, they do not reach the highest result, but obtain finite results which are impermanent and run out in time. Vaishnavas alone reach the highest fruit of mukti",

  1. That Adi Shankara has specifically praised the method of worship followed by the Vaishnavas (including their single-minded devotion to Vishnu without praying to other deities) as Vedic,

  1. That all Vedanta Acharyas (including Adi Shankara) have identified the Supreme God praised by Vaishnavites, Lord Vishnu/Narayana/Krishna/Vasudeva as the Supreme Being sung in the Bhagavad Gita; our friend thus stands against even Adi Shankara's position regarding the Gita,

  1. That it was accepted by even Adi Shankara that Lord Vishnu ALONE is praised as the Supreme Being EVERYWHERE in the Vedas, Itihasas, and Sattvika Puranas, and

  1. That Vyasa has stated in the Mahabharata as follows: "Having examined all the Vedic scriptures inside out many times, I deem the following to be sure: That it is Narayana who is always to be meditated upon".

The aforementioned truths are big obstacles to our anti-Vaishnavite friend's unholy cause. Hence, he wants these to be hidden from as many people as possible, so that the gullible followers of his blog can be cheated with lies.

After timidly stating:

"ok. let me also try my best to support shaivism, and let me learn on my own at the end what's right and what's wrong. why should i follow others? they might also be erroneous. if i happen to reveal right things about shiva that's great, and if at all i happen to udnerstand by my own that vishnu is the ultimate reality, that is also fine with me since vishnu is also my father. Let me go my way and realize the truths on my own. why to refer to other's experiences?", he retracts this sentiment by deleting ALL the comments except for the first few, followed by a return to anti-Vaishnavite ranting in his latest post. What a display of honesty!

The fact that our friend will resort to any sort of dishonest means is exemplified by the following episode in the debate:

When I tried to show that Lord Vishnu's supremacy is established clearly in the mOkShadharma section of the mahAbhArata, he tried to claim that the mOkShadharma (which is part of the twelfth book, shAnti parva) is a later interpolation, citing the English translator K. M. Ganguli's opinion that can be found on this link.

However, our friend quotes liberally from the thirteenth book, the anushAsana parva. He uses quotations (which were never authenticated by any of the early AcAryas like Shankara) found in that section to establish Shiva's supremacy as per his whim. The same K. M. Ganguli says that the anushAsana parva is also a later interpolation (see this link):

"The Anusasana Parva, like the Santi Parva before it, is a long hiatus in the narrative of the Mahabharata. Set on the deathbed of Bhishma, the Anusasana Parva is a huge treasure-trove of Brahmanic lore which is obviously a later interpolation in the epic."

But of course, our friend won't accept this when it comes to his favorite quotations regarding Shiva's supremacy (some very clearly later interpolations). Wise people are aware that if we were to take modern indologists' opinion without examining them critically, then we may as well say that the Vedas are just poems composed in 2000 BC and are the figments of the minds of early forest-dwellers who were afraid of natural forces like thunder, rain, cyclone etc., shall we not???

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A few truths revealed

Let us now come to the following points highlighted in green in the comments above:

Truth# 1: The Uttama Purusha in Chandogya Upanishad is Vishnu only. Hence, the Supreme Lord identified in the Bhagavad Gita is Lord Vishnu only, and not Lord Shiva:

It is well known that the Bhagavad Gita has been recognized by everyone as the highest Hindu scripture. Hence, every attempt is made by anti-Vaishnavites to distance the Bhagavad Gita from Vishnu's supremacy, Vishnu, and Vaishnavism. Our shaiva friend is no exception to this, and has taken great pains to explain in about 10 blog postings (conveniently omitting key verses that clearly speak for Vishnu's supremacy) that Siva is identified as the supreme being in the Bhagavad Gita.

Getting into details, we relate this attack to the identification of "uttamaH puruShaH" as stated in the Chandogya Upanishad by Shaivites as Shiva. The reader can see below which side is true. The following is found in a Shaivite work called "shrIkaNTha bhAShya" (written by someone known as shrIkaNTha between the 13th and 16th centuries, and was supported by Appayya Dikshita in his works such as Shivadvaita Nirnaya):

Saivite opponent: [SrkBh:1]

The Vaishnavites claim thus: As the highest light, an object to be attained by the freed souls, is denoted by the word 'Highest Person' (Purusottama), so the phrase.  'The Highest Person" (Uttama Purusah) refers to it. Further, the word 'Highest Person* directly refers to Narayana. Hence, he is the highest light standing for the highest person. To this, we reply : Here the highest light, an object to be obtained by the freed souls, is none else but the Supreme Brahman, called Supreme Siva. For, it is seen that those only who attain Him do not return (to transmigratory existence). How can this kind of non-return be appropriate on the part of those who attain some one other than the Supreme Brahman? Although the words 'Highest Person' directly refer to Narayana, yet it is applicable to Brahman as well, as He is superior to all persons or individual souls. In the Brahma-medha-kalpa too, viz. in the text, "To encircle the Highest Person", the name 'Highest Person' has been employed as a synonym for the Supreme Brahman, the object to be obtained. Hence, the Supreme Brahman alone is the highest light.

The Truth:

The above explanation of Chandogya Upanishad is not authenticated by any early Acharyas. In fact, it directly contradicts and condemns Shankara Bhashyam, and hence deserves to be rejected by those who place authority on Shankara. It is also against the Bhagavad Gita. We shall see how.

(1) First of all, in Bhagavad Gita, Shri Krishna says:

uttamaḥ puruṣastvanyaḥ paramātmētyudāhṛtaḥ.

yō lōkatrayamāviśya bibhartyavyaya īśvaraḥ..15.17..

Here, Shankara's commentary says that Uttama Purusha in the vedAnta refers to Ishvara, the controller whose name is Narayana: [GBhS:6].

uttamaḥ utkṛṣṭatamaḥ puruṣastu anyaḥ atyantavilakṣaṇaḥ ābhyāṅ paramātmā iti paramaśca asau dēhādyavidyākṛtātmabhyaḥ, ātmā ca sarvabhūtānāṅ pratyakcētanaḥ, ityataḥ paramātmā iti udāhṛtaḥ uktaḥ vēdāntēṣu. sa ēva viśiṣyatē yaḥ lōkatrayaṅ bhūrbhuvaḥsvarākhyaṅ svakīyayā caitanyabalaśaktyā āviśya praviśya bibharti svarūpasadbhāvamātrēṇa bibharti dhārayati; avyayaḥ na asya vyayaḥ vidyatē iti avyayaḥ. kaḥ? īśvaraḥ sarvajñaḥ nārāyaṇākhyaḥ īśanaśīlaḥ..

and then in 15.18 comes the bombshell which should impale Vishnu-haters. Prelude given by Shankara below, and then the Sloka: [GBhS:6].

yathāvyākhyātasya īśvarasya 'puruṣōttamaḥ' ityētat nāma prasiddham. tasya nāmanirvacanaprasiddhyā arthavattvaṅ nāmnō darśayan 'niratiśayaḥ aham īśvaraḥ' iti ātmānaṅ darśayati bhagavān

yasmātkṣaramatītō.hamakṣarādapi cōttamaḥ.

atō.smi lōkē vēdē ca prathitaḥ puruṣōttamaḥ

Translation: "Since I am superior to the immutable and the mutable, I am known in the world and in the Vedas as the Purushottama". Here, the key phrase is "both in the world and in the Vedas". "In the world" refers to the popularity of the name "Purushottama" in the world as Vishnu's (rather than Siva's).

Madhusudana Sarasvati - another advaitin who lived in the 16th Century and followed Shankara’s Vedanta, quotes Kalidasa's Raghuvamsam [RVmsKD:1]to this support in his gUDhArtha dIpikA: [GuMS:1]

lōkē ca kavikāvyādau 'hariryathaikaḥ puruṣōttamaḥ smṛtaḥ' ityādiprasiddham |”,

showing that even Kalidasa, who was a Shiva bhakta predominantly, accepted that the name “puruShOttama” refers to Lord Vishnu only.

It is to be noted here, even without taking the support of Shankara Bhashyams, that those who proclaim that Krishna refers to Siva alone in the “so(a)hambhAva when he says "worship me", "surrender me", "I am the supreme" etc., will stumble when they come to this verse. BhagavAn Krishna, who knows the past, present, and future, has foreseen these misinterpretations and hence to annihilate them, states "loke vede ca".

Saivites may very well use twisted yuktis to argue that Uttama Purusha in Vedas is Siva, not Krishna. But they stand exposed when they are asked to quote any itihAsa/purANastatement or kavi or kAvya or nighaNTu in history that assigns the name Purushottama to Siva. Their position is undermined even by Kalidasa, himself a devotee of Siva!!!

I challenge our anti-Vaishnavite author of the “mahapashupatastra” blog page to refute logically this ONE observation. I will promise that I would consider such a refutation tantamount to answering all of my points here defending Vaishnavism!

For "vede" Madhusudana Saraswati quotes the Chandogya verse which Dikshitar adamantly proclaims as Siva's:

sa uttamaḥ puruṣa iti vēda udāhṛta ēva

Hence, Bhagavad Gita is all about Lord Vishnu's supremacy alone, and not Lord Shiva's as "mahA pAshupata astra" author claims.

(2) Let us take Chandogya Upanishad Bhashyam of Shankara, and look at the corresponding verse that Dikshitar vehemently argues as referring to Siva:

Chandogya 8.12.3 Shankara Bhashyam: [ChUpBhS:1]

evaṃ ca sa uttamapuruṣa uttamaścāsau puruṣaścetyuttamapuruṣaḥ sa evottamapuruṣo 'kṣisvapnapuruṣau vyaktāvavyaktaśca suṣuptaḥ samastaḥ saṃprasanno 'śarīraśca svena rūpeṇeti /

eṣāmeṣa svena rūpeṇāvasthitaḥ kṣarākṣarau vyākṛtāvyākṛtāvapekṣyottamapuruṣaḥ kṛtanirvacano hyayaṃ gītāsu /

Here, Shankara refers to the Nirvachanam in Gita, hence again confirming that the Uttama Purusha is Vishnu only. This is supported by Anandagiri, who in the Chandogya Upanishad Tika, quotes the Gita 15.17 and 15.18.

All this firmly establishes that the “Uttama Purusha” spoken about in the Chandogya Upanishad is none but Lord Vishnu only. These also establishe that only Lord Krishna is glorified as Supreme Brahman in Bhagavad Gita.

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Truth# 2: Shri Rudram extols shrIman nArAyaNa only. Moreover, the Vedas speak about the supremacy of Lord Vishnu only everywhere

The shrIvaiShNava bhAgavata in the above debate has commented on the Sri Rudram mantras, and says that they sing Vishnu's supremacy alone. This may come as a surprise to many from the Smarta/Shaiva background who see Rudram chanted in Shiva pUjas. Here is my analysis:

We first take a look at the Bhagavad Gita verse 15.15::

sarvasya ca-ahaM hRdi sanniviSTo mattaH smRtirj~nAnamapohanaM ca |

vedaishca sarvairahameva vedyo vedantakRt-vedavit-eva ca-aham ||

(Bhagavad Gita 15.15)

In the above verse, Lord Narayana, in his Krishna form, teaches the following to Arjuna: "I am seated in the hearts of all beings. Memory, knowledge, as well as their loss come from Me. I alone am to be known from all the Vedas; I am indeed the author of Vedanta as well as its knower."

Here, the message is that Lord Krishna/Vishnu alone is glorified by all the Vedas.

The following portion, pertaining to the nAma "kathitaH" from Shri Shankara's Vishnu Sahasranama commentary contains a key verse from the Harivamsa. The commentary and this verse establishes that Lord Vishnu indeed is spoken of everywhere in the Vedas as the Highest, and that this was in accordance with Adi Shankara's own belief [VSBhS:1]. Read carefully below:

vedAdibhir-ayameka eva paratvena kathita kathita iti kathitaH | sarvairvedaiH kathita iti vA kathitaH | "sarve vedA yatpadamAmananti", "vedaishca sarvairahameva vedyaH", "vede rAmAyaNe puNye bhArate bharatarSabhaH! adau madye tathA cAnte viSNuH sarvatra gIyate" iti shruti-smRtyAdi-vacanebhyaH |

Translation:  He (Vishnu) is known as kathitaH since He alone is declared as supreme by the Veda and Vedic texts; or He who is described by all the Vedas. The following statements from the shruti (Vedas) and smRtis confirm this:

"All the Vedas describe His status.." (Kathopanishad 1.2.15),

"I alone am to be known from all the Vedas" (Bhagavad Gita 15.15),

"Vishnu is sung everywhere at the beginning, middle, and end of the Vedas, the holy rAmAyaNa and the mahAbhArata, O Best of the lineage of Bharata!" (Harivamsa, 3.132.95).

This is the reason why everyone begins and ends Vedic chanting with "hariH OM" (Lord Vishnu's name).

The above points, by themselves, should put to rest any objection against identifying Rudram as Shriman Narayana's praise.

Nevertheless, we shall discuss the Sri Rudram portion specifically, in order to confirm these statements. The full details are found in the "Vaishnava commentary on Sri Rudram" page bearing an article written by the shrIvaiShNava bhAgavata who supported Vaishnavism along with me in the above debate.

One needs to consider the following:

(1) The shvetAshvatara upaniShad contains a few mantras from Sri Rudram. Clearly, the Supreme Brahman established in the Vedas is Vishnu alone, as shown by the above arguments. Hence, shvetAshvatara upaniShad must be a praise of Vishnu alone, and hence at least a few mantras in Sri Rudram must be considered a praise of Vishnu as Parabrahman.

(2) It is well known that Valmiki Ramayana is traditionally considered an avatAra of the Veda, and which Valmiki composed to explain the Veda. This is established in the following shloka recited traditionally before the recitation of Ramayana:

"veda vedye pare puMsi jAte dasharathAtmaje

vedaH prAcetasAt AsIt sAkShAt rAmAyaNAtmanA"

In the Ramayana, there is a chapter where Valmiki describes Shri Rama's anger when He threatens to annihilate the Samudra Raja with a single arrow. At this juncture, Samudra Raja appears praises Shri Rama, fearing his wrath. The verses recited by Samudra Raja correspond in meaning to mantras in Shri Rudram. Hence, it is Valmiki Maharishi's opinion that Shri Rudram indeed addresses Lord Vishnu. The specific verses and their connection to Shri Rudram can be found in the relevant page. Here is the relevant portion:

yAmishuM girishanta haste bibharshyastavE |

shivAM giritra tAm kuru mA himsI: purushaM jagath ||

Meaning: O Girishanta (Creator of GirishA/pArvai pati Rudradeva), O Giritra (Lord, who is propounded in the VedAntA), shoot that auspicious arrow you hold in your hand (to destroy the obstacles to my knowledge of Brahman). Do not cause injury to the JivAtmA who is migrating in the samsAra (purusham jagat)....

The same happens in srimad rAmAyaNam. When samudra rAjan appeases the anger of SrI rAman, he gets a reply from bhagavAn that his arrow needs a target. Upon hearing this, samudra rAjan makes the following statement:

 tairna tatsparshanam pApam saheyam pApakarmabhiH || amoghaH kriyatAm rAma tatra teShu sharottamaH | (~ vAlmiki rAmAyaNam 2-22-33)

Meaning: (Samudra rAjan said:) I am not able to bear that touch of those wicked people, the evil doers. O rAmA, Let this excellent arrow (that is never rendered in vain) be released over them there.

(3) It is accepted that the devatA of Sri Rudram is Lord Siva or Rudra. However, this does not mean that Rudram can not be considered as a hymn of Vishnu. For that matter, the devatA of vishvakarmA sUkta is recognized as vishvakarmA. However, the hymns in this sUkta contain a description on of how the entire Universe, after mahApralaya, was created from Lord Vishnu's navel. Thismantra that goes as:

"ajasya nAbhau adhyekaM arpitaM yasmin vishvAni bhuvanAni tasthuH"

[In the navel of the unborn was (the entire universe) stationed - Rg veda, 10th maNDala, 82nd sUkta, 6th mantra]

has been explained by Bhishmacharya in the Mokshadharma parva of Mahabharata as referring to Lord Vishnu, occurring in the stOtra that he sang for Shri Krishna paramAtmA:

"ajasya nAbhAv adhyekaM yasmin vishvaM pratiShThitaM |

puShkaraM puShkarAkShasya tasmai padmAtmane namaH ||"

[I salute that lotus flower which appeared from the navel of the unborn Lord with lotus-like eyes, in which the entire universe was stationed (during creaetion)]

Moreover, Shri Adi Shankaracharya states in his Vishnu Sahasranama commentary that the mantra in the vishvakarmA sUkta only refers to Lord Vishnu's form as padmanAbha [VSBhS:2]:

"sarvajagatkAraNaM padmaM nAbhau yasya saH padmanAbhaH, 'ajasya nAbhAvadhyekaM arpitaM' iti shruteH"

Translation: The explanation for the name padmanAbha is as follows: The one whose navel contains the lotus that is the cause of the entire universe. 'ajasya nAbhAvadhyekaM arpitaM', says shruti.


Hence, it is accepted by authorities of great reputation that the Vishvakarma sUkta speaks of Vishnu alone as the Highest Brahman, even though the devatA for that sUkta is named 'vishvakarmA'. Similarly, the being praised as the Highest Brahman in the Shri Rudram is Lord Vishnu only, even though the devata for Shri Rudram is identified as Rudra.

 (4) Another point in support of this was offered by the shrIvaiShNava bhAgavata, the details of which are given in the relevant page "Vaishnava commentary on Sri Rudram" on this page. The proof is from bhagavAn Lord Krishna's himself. The verses quoted in that page relating to this point correspond to the Shanti Parva section in the Mahabharata (12.328.5 onwards, dialogue between Lord Krishna and Arjuna).

Thus, the Rudram refers to Shriman Narayana as the antaryAmi of Lord Rudra, and also refers to Shriman Narayana Himself directly at places. This explanation is in line with Brahma Sutras. This was explained by the bhAgavata to me, in private: When we say 'vaishvAnara', it refers to gastric fire. At the same time, the name 'vaishvAnara' means 'giver of life', which is a direct name of nArAyaNa. The Brahma Sutras establish that vaishvAnara therefore, refers to the antaryAmin of (the) gastric fire, i.e., nArAyaNa.

Vaishnavas (rightly) claim that Shri Rudram can be interpreted to address Lord Vishnu, and that this is as per the pronouncement of maharShis like Vyasa and Valmiki who held that He alone is praised in all the Vedas.

To this our friend retorts thus: "Can Vaishnavas show even one Vishnu temple where Shri Rudram is chanted as part of abhiSheka, as in Shiva temples?"

Our friend does not seem to be aware that there are prescribed sUktas in pA~ncarAtra and vaikhAnasa Agamas (the Vaishnavite Agamas) for recitation during tiruma~ncanaM (thirumanjanam, or abhiSheka) and that traditional worship of Lord Vishnu are strictly based on these Agamas. For that matter, one can not substitute the nArAyaNa sUkta or viShNu sUkta in an area where the Vaishnava Agamas prescribe the chanting of puruSha sUkta.

The bhAgavata who defended Vaishnavism in the debate also notes that in a Vishnu temple in his locality in Chennai (pArthasArathi perumAL temple in tiruvallikkeNi/Triplicane), Shri Rudram is recited as part of veda pArAyaNa and in major utsavas.

I also wish to point out an authority from a non-Ramanuja/Madhva source in these matters as an evidence. The great Mahamahopadhyaya Ramasubba Shastri of Tiruvisanallur in Tanjore district, who lived in the last half of the 19th and first few years of the 20th century, has proclaimed Vishnu's supremacy in his works.This advaitic scholar has upheld Shankara as a Vaishnavite in his works.

He has written a work called "shvetAshvatara upaniShad vilAsa" in which he has explained that the mantras of shvetAshvatara upaniShad, some of which are in Shri Rudram, clearly extol Lord Vishnu as the Supreme. Another such work of his is "atharvashiropaniShadvilAsa" which proves similarly that Vishnu is declared as the Supreme in Atharva Shiropanishad also.

Yet another important work of his is viShNudveShakara-mahAshaivamata-mardanam directed against a shaivAdvaitic personality known as "Mahamahopadhyaya Raju Shastri" of Mannargudi. Unfortunately, Raju Shastri held clout in the Kumbhakonam mutt (Kanchi Kamakoti Mutt of today), even though he lost in debate to the former after finding himself unable to answer questions after a certain point. This is the reason why Adi Shankara continues to be misrepresented till today as a shaiva or as advocate of shaNmata.

Though Ramasubba Shastri's manuscripts have not been published in the press till now, they are well preserved. In the recent years, some of them have been passed on to a trustworthy scholar, which gives us hope that Shri Ramasubba Shastri's works will see the light of the day very soon. See this article for some light on this matter:

http://www.academia.edu/1119793/Ramasubrahma_yas_Manuscripts_A_Kaveri_Delta_Collection_Then_and_Now_preprint_version_

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Truth# 3: Narayana Suktam praises Shriman Narayana alone as the Supreme, and tAmasa purANas are not authoritative

It is well established that the name "nArAyaNa" refers to Lord Vishnu only - in the Vedas and in common parlance. This is because of the grammatical rule explained above. Vedas themselves identify nArAyaNa with viShNu and vAsudEva, all of which are names of Hari:

"nArAyaNAya vidmahe vAsudevAya dhImahI 

tanno viShNuH pracodayAt"

Our friend retorts that Paninian grammar is post-Vedic and hence can not be relied on for explaining Vedic mantras. The truth is that Panini only codified existing Vedic grammatical rules, and did not create new rules.

It is exactly because of this reason that Appayya in his Shivadvaita Nirnaya, identified nArAyaNa as viShNu only in his shivAdvaita nirNaya, taking pains to prove and state time and again that nArAyaNa is not brahman. This is also the reason for his attempt to explain the mantra "nArAyaNaH paraM brahmA" as "nArAyaNAt paraM brahmA" which was condemned by even advaitins such as bOdhEndra sarasvati in works such as hariharAdvaita-bhUShaNa.

We will look at the opinion of learned people in this matter. All Vaidikas, including Advaitins explained the Narayana Sukta as a hymn of the Puranic Narayana/Vishnu only. You can see this point from surEshvara's bRhadAraNyaka upaniShad bhAShya vArtika in the antaryAmi brAhmaNa section, and Anandagiri's TIka to the same (Sureshvara is one of the disciples of Adi Shankara, and Anandagiri is an advaitin of the 13th/14th Century): [BrUphV:1]:

kR^iShNadvaipAyano vyAso vedAtmA dhvAntahAnikR^it |

prahemameva bahushaH praNInAM hitakAmyayA ||

nArAyaNaH paro.avyaktAt aNDamavyakta saMbhavam |

aNDasyAntastv ime sarvAH lokAH saptadvIpAshca medhinI ||

tasmai namostu devAya nirguNAya guNAtmane |

nArAyaNAya vishvAya devAnAM paramAtmane ||

etameva samuddishya mantro nArAyaNastathA |

vedavidbhir mahAprAj~naiH puruShair viniyujyate ||

Translation: Krishna Dvaipayana, the Vyasa, who is Vedas personified and who is the remover of ignorance, has said the following time and again for the welfare of beings: Narayana is beyond avyakta (prakRti); from avyakta is the entire cosmig egg born; inside this cosmic egg are all the worlds, the seven islands, and the earth. To that Narayana, I offer salutations - to Him, who is lustrous, devoid of attributes (nirguNa) and also the one with all auspicious attributes - to Him, who is the universe personified, who is the Supreme among all deities. With Him as the object are the nArAyaNa mantras (in the Vedas) being recited by the great knowledgeable personalities who are well-versed in the Vedas.

Anandagiri's TIka says here: [BrUpBhV:1]:

na kevalaM purANAgamAbhyAMeva so.adhigamyate, kiM tu shrutyakSharair api ityarthaH | etameveti | sahasrashIrShaM devaM vishvAkShaM vishvashaMbhuvaM vishvaM nArAyaNaM devaM akSharaM paramaM padaM' ityAdi mantraH vedavidbhir antaryAmiNaM uddishya viniyukto.ataH sa vaidikaH ityarthaH

Translation: (surEshvarAcArya explains here that) not only is nArAyaNa's greatness known from Puranas and Agamas, but from Vedic mantras such as 'sahasrashIrShaM devaM vishvAkShaM vishvashaMbhuvaM vishvaM nArAyaNaM devaM akSharaM paramaM padaM' that serve to show this as the Vedic position.

This shows that the Narayana Sukta mantras praise the Puranic Vishnu only.


Moreover, in Sayanacarya's commentary on the Narayana Sukta, we find the following statement pertaining to the mantra "nArAyaNaH paraM brahmA" etc: [TASyB:1]

"purANeShu nArAyaNashabdena vyavahriyamANo yaH parameshvaraH, sa eva 'paraM' utkR^iShTaM"

Translation: The Supreme Lord who is denoted by the term 'nArAyaNa' in the purANas - He alone is the Highest.

Hence, Sayana also understands the Narayana of the Narayana Sukta as the puranic nArAyaNa only.

Our friend says in his latest post (in this link) that sAyaNa and bhaTTa bhAskara were 'impartial commentators'. The same 'impartial commentators' identified the deity praised in the Narayana Sukta as the Puranic Narayana only. Will he accept the following observations made by these 'impartial commentators'?

  1. The puruSha sUkta refers to Lord Narayana only (Sayana and Bhatta Bhaskara in their Taittiriya Aranyaka commentary) [TASyB:2] [TABBB:1]

  1. The name "nArAyaNa" is a proper name and refers only to Vishnu, and this is because of Panini's grammatical rule (Bhatta Bhaskara on Narayana Sukta commentary) [TABBB:2]

Our shaivite friend's claim that Itihasa-Puranas can not be used to understand and explain the Vedas is rather bizarre. All traditional scholars accept the maxim: "itihAsapurANAbhyAM vedaM samupabrahmayet", which means that the Vedas have to be understood with the help of Itihasas and Puranas, where there is no contradiction. In Valmiki Ramayana also, we have the following shlOka which explains that Valmiki composed the Ramayana to explain Vedas in a lucid manner:

sa tu medhāvinau dṛṣṭvā vedeṣu pariniṣṭitau |

vedopabṛṃhaṇārthāya tau agrāhayata prabhuḥ || 1-4-6

Translation: On seeing that pair intellectuals who are proficient in Veda-s that self-reliant sage Valmiki made those two to memorize the epic, as the epic Ramayana is composed only to reinforce the import of Veda-s, as an ancillary. [1-4-6]

In light of all this, our shaivite friend's claim that the nArAyaNa sUkta is a hymn to Tripura Sundari is indeed laughable. So is his vulgar commentary that the nArAyaNa sUkta "describes the union of Tripurasundari with her consort Shiva" and that it describes the ascent of "seminal fluids". He claims that the "heart" in nArAyaNa sUkta is actually the sushumnA nADi. Nowhere does the nArAyaNa sUkta talk about these terms.

Also ridiculous is his explanation of the name "nArAyaNa" as "nara + ayana". Our friend does not even know how sandhi operates in Vedic Sanskrit. If you combine the word "nara" with "ayana", you would get the word "narAyanaH" (नरायनः) and not "nArAyaNaH" (नारायणः)

Our friend asks as follows:

Another example could be “rAmAyaNa” which is “rAma + Ayana (direction of movement)” is identically same as the definition of Tripurasundari as nArAyaNa. And on similar lines it is spelt as “rAmAyaNa” and not “rAmAyana”. This “rAmAyaNa” is again a proper noun applicable on Rama’s lifestory (epic) only but still we have Valmiki Ramayana, Kamba Ramayana, Bhushundi Ramayana, Tulasidas Ramayana and so on… Where has been the rAmAyaNa which is again a proper noun, infallible in this case? It has become a common noun when only read as “rAmAyaNa”, but it remains a unique proper noun when we prefix the version (Valmiki, Kamba etc…) to the word “rAmAyaNa”.  

This again shows his ignorance. These other rAmAyaNas are called rAmAyaNa because they have been named thus. Similarly, my neighbor's son can very well be called "nArAyaNa" if he has been given that name by scholars, and also because these books revere the original  rAmAyaNa of vAlmIki as the authoritative one. In contrast, nowhere are Shiva, Durga, and others given the name nArAyaNa. In any case, Kamban's work was not originally called "rAmAyaNa" but "irAmAvatAram", and Tulsidas' work "rAmacaritamanas".

The point behind the "Na" in rAmAyaNa is as follows: You can not take a story of some other person named "Rama" and describe it as "rAmAyaNa". But you can describe it as "rAmAyana" since it makes sense etymologically.

Our friend quotes a kUrma purANa passage which seems to proclaim that nArAyaNa is a name of Uma. He claims that the verse goes like this:

"I salute thy form called Narayana, O Lalita, which has a thousand heads, which is of infinite energy, having a thousand arms, the ancient Person..."

I have checked the Kurma Purana text available in the following non-Vaishnava pages:

http://is1.mum.edu/vedicreserve/puranas/kurma_purana.pdf

http://fiindolo.sub.uni-goettingen.de/gret_utf.htm#Pur

However, I could not find the verse that this shaiva friend has quoted. It seems that Bhaskararaya has quoted from  his own version, interpolated with pro-shAkta verses (Update: Mahapashupatastra's author has pointed out that the verse exists as 1.11.245 in the above version. Point taken and I acknowledge this). Even then, this does not matter. The verse that Bhaskararaya has quoted just says that nArAyaNa is a vibhUti of Shakti not sAkShAt shakti.

If nArAyaNa is the name for Tripurasundari used by Vedas to denote parabrahman, how come Lalita Sahasranama does not have the name "nArAyaNa" as a name of umA? If nArAyaNa is the name used by Vedas to denote Shiva who is absolutely non-different from umA as parabrahman, how come the shiva sahasranAmas do not contain the name "nArAyaNa" as a name of Shiva? If the name "nArAyaNI" is to be found in Lalita Sahasranama, this can very well be etymologically interpreted as "one who is related to nArAyaNa".

Tamasic purANas are not authoritative, and hence can not be used to understand the Vedas. This has been very well spelled out not only in Padma Purana, but also in the Matsya Purana. Ramanujacharya and even prior to that Yamunacharya has quoted the following verse from it:

agneḥ śivasya māhātmyaṃ tāmaseṣu prakīrtyate /

rājaseṣu ca māhātmyam adhikaṃ brahmaṇo viduḥ //

sāttvikeṣu ca kalpeṣu māhātmyam adhikaṃ hareḥ /

teṣv eva yogasaṃsiddhā gamiṣyanti parāṃ gatim //

The respective works of Yamunacharya and Ramanuja which quote this passage are Agama-prAmANya and vEdArtha-saMgraha. The full text of the Vedartha Sangraha is available here and the reader can verify that I  have copied the text from there:

http://fiindolo.sub.uni-goettingen.de/gretil/1_sanskr/6_sastra/3_phil/vedanta/ramvaspu.htm

 In the Agama-prAmANya, this verse is quoted in the 81st section.

The above Puranic verse quoted by Ramanuja is authentic and (unlike Bhaskararaya’s quote which can not be found in the current versions of Kurma Purana) is to be found in the current editions of Matsya Purana hosted on non-Vaishnava pages also. See line 68 in page 216 here and in the plain text version here. The reading is slightly different, but the meaning is the same:

sāttvikeṣu purāṇeṣu māhātmyamadhikaṃ hareḥ /

rājaseṣu ca māhātmyam adhikaṃ brahmaṇo viduḥ // MatsP_53.68 //

tadvadagneśca māhātmyaṃ tāmaseṣu śivasya ca /

Due to the three-fold division of Puranas into sAtvika, rAjasa, and tAmasa conveyed by the above verse, prAcIna advaita AcAryas such as Adi Shankara never quoted any verse from these Tamasic purANas which show Shiva as supreme, but quotes only the passages which show Vishnu as supreme in all his bhAShyas.

Another advaitin's opinion can also be cited here, that of Sri Narayana Bhattathiri of Kerala who composed Narayaneeyam (nArAyaNIyam), now popular in smArta homes. After stating that Lord Krishna is indeed the refuge of even Shiva, and that the boons granted by Shiva are impermanent and are not to be desired by mumukShus, in the 90th dashakam, Sri Narayana Bhatta says:

ye svaprakṛtyanuguṇā giriśaṃ bhajante

teṣāṃ phalaṃ hi dṛḍhayaiva tadīyabhaktyā /

vyāso hi tena kṛtavānadhikārihetoḥ

skāndādikeṣu tava hānivaco'rthavādaiḥ // 90.9

bhūtārthakīrtiranuvādaviruddhavādau

tredhārthavādagatayaḥ khalu rocanārthāḥ /

skāndādikeṣu bahavo'tra viruddhavādās-

tvattāmasatvaparibhūtyupaśikṣaṇādyāḥ // 90.10

Translation: Those who, in conformity with their natural inclinations, or tendencies (Vasanas), worship Siva, do obtain the desired ends by firm devotion to him (Siva) only. It is with a view to encourage and motivate such persons that Sage Vyasa has eulogised Siva in his works like Skanda Purana, and made statements deprecating Thee. Arthavadas, or exaggeratory declarations, are of three kinds, namely, those which are neither contrary to available pramanas (proofs or authority) nor verifiable by experience; those which are verifiable by experience; and those which are contrary to experience, bordering on perverted interpretations. These are all devices employed by their proponents with a definite objective in view, or to score debating points, and are not to be taken in the literal sense. Statements in the Skanda and other Puranas attributing Tamoguna or defeat to Thee etc fall in this category and are motivated by the objective of intensifying devotion to one's chosen deity, and are not to be understood as belittling Thee.

This clearly puts into perspective the division of purANas into sattvika, rAjasa, and tAmasa.

Shri Mahamahopadhyaya Ramasubba Shastri also notes that Shri Shankara never quoted from the sections in the anushAsana parva of mahAbhArata that claim Shiva-supremacy (such as Shiva Gita, Suta Samhita, Shankara Samhita) and hence they are not authoritative (specifically, the Upamanyu episode found in some editions of the anushAsana parva is a later-day interpolations). All of the mahAbhArata quotations in Shankara's bhAShyas are from sections such as mOkShadharma which proclaim Vishnu's supremacy.

Our shaivite blogger is really deluded to think that he is smart enough to achieve what Appayya did not achieve, i.e. explain the name "nArAyaNa" as referring to someone else other than viShNu.

Our friend asks Vaishnavas in which Vishnu temple Shri Rudram is chanted while during puShpArcana or abhiShEka. Has he seen any Shiva/Shakti temple in which the nArAyaNa sUkta is recited during puShpArcana to umA?

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Truth# 4: The so-called Upanishads which proclaim Shiva/Shakti's supremacy are bogus

Our shaivite friend presents certain "Upanishad" texts to support the theory that nArAyaNa sUkta is a praise of Tripurasundari. From the first three truths, it is clear that these shaiva and shAkta texts that go in the name of "Upanishads" today are not part of Vedas at all unlike authentic Upanishads, but texts written by shiva and shakti worshipers of the medieval ages (14th-15th Century onwards). This fact is also strengthened by the observation that no shaiva/shAkta personalities before 14th Century ever quoted from these so-called "Upanishads". Haradatta (a shaivite writer who lived before appayya dIkShita) labors in his "Sruti-Sukti-Mala" to establish shiva as the brahman by quoting only from the authentic Upanishads which all advaita, vishiShTAdvaita, and dvaita AcAryas accept. If these pro-shaivite upaniShads were extant at Haradatta's time, he would have easily established shiva as the supreme using them.

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Truth# 5: Adi Shankara did not write stOtras which glorify any deity other than Vishnu

I have shown in numerous quotations above that Adi Shankara was a Vaishnavite by theology, even though he is an Advaitin (belief in EkAtma vAda) by philosophy. In spite of this, and after deleting all my comments which establish this truth, our shaiva friend claims that dakShiNAmUrti upaniShad which proclaims Shiva's supremacy is authoritative and quotes a dakShiNAmUrti stOtra attributed to Adi Shankara. Adi Shankara wrote no stotras or shlokas praising Shiva, Uma, Ganesha, Skanda, or Surya as paramAtmA. This has been stated by shrI nArAyaNa bhaTTa in nArAyaNIyam, 90.5 [Nym:1]:

śrīśaṅkaro'pi bhagavān sakaleṣu tāvat

tvāmeva mānayati yo na hi pakṣapātī /

tvanniṣṭhameva sa hi nāmasahasrakādi

vyākhyad bhavatstutiparaśca gatiṃ gato'nte //

Translation: Sri Sankara Bhagavadpada, who is reputedly free from bias, worshipped Thee particularly among all Sakala forms (those having attributes) of Thine. He wrote Commentatries only on Vishnu Sahasranama, Bhagavadgita and other works depicting Thee. In the end, he also attained salvation singing Thy praises.

In the commentary to the above nArAyaNIyam verse, desha maN^gala varya, another Keralite advaitin states that "Shankara wrote commentaries explaining Vishnu alone and not Shiva and others as the Supreme. He was not inclined to writing stotras glorifying Shiva.". [Nym:1]

This establishes that the stotras glorifying Shiva, Shakti etc. (such as the two Laharis) are authored by some recent Shankaracharyas who are heads of mutts, and they have been attributed to Adi Shankara for the cause of Shaivite propaganda and anti-Vaishnavism.

I wish to reiterate the following points, observed from Shri Shankara's authentic bhAShyas:

In Bhagavad Gita Bhashya (9.23-9.25), Shankara says worshipers of other deities, such as vinAyaka etc. obtain finite results, whereas the vaiShNavas, who worship Lord vAsudEva obtain the eternal fruit of mOkSha [GBhS:8]. Here, Shankara specifically uses the term "vaiShNavas" and states that they alone attain eternal bliss, worshiping vAsudEva as the Supreme and as the in-dweller of all other deities. He specifically says that even though the devotees of other deities spend an effort of equal measure as the Vaishnavas (but not directed at the worship of vAsudEva), they obtain finite results which are subject to return to the samsAra (cycle of birth and death).

Shri Shankara states, also in the bhagavad gItA bhAShya (6.47) that among the yOgis, those who worship Rudra, Aditya, etc. are inferior to those who are vAsudEva bhaktas: [GBhS:9]

yoginām api sarveṣāṃ rudrādityādi-dhyāna-parāṇāṃ madhye mad-gatena mayi vāsudeve samāhitenāntarātmanāntaḥ-karaṇena śraddhāvān śraddadhānaḥ san bhajate sevate yo mām, sa me mama yuktatamo 'tiśayena yukto mato 'bhipreta iti

Shankara also says in the pA~ncarAtra adhikaraNa (Brahma Sutra Bhashya, 2.2.42) that there are certain aspects of the Pancharatra doctrine which are to be accepted, and says that worshipping Lord Vishnu as the Supreme Soul with unceasing ananya devotion as inculcated by the Pancharatra Shastras is as per the vEda and smRtis. However, Shankara does not make any such approving statements regarding the rites of worship according to the shaiva doctrine (discussed in the previous adhikaraNa, from 2.2.37-2.2.41). Shankara rejects the whole doctrine as vEda bAhya. He does not identify the pUja aspect of the shaivas to be according to the vEda.

Other early advaitins such as Sureshvara and Sarvajnatma muni also held Vishnu as supreme. Sureshvara calls Vishnu as "purANaH" and "shAshvataH". [BrUpBhV:2] [BrUpBhV:3]

Sarvajnatman (sarvaj~nAtma muni) begins his work "saN^kShepa shArIraka" (Sankshepa Sariraka) with an invocation to "murArEH paramaM padaM" (The supreme station of murAri, the slayer of the demon 'Mura'). After mentioning Vishnu as the Supreme Brahman time and again, and at a certain point disowning Vaisheshika and mAhEshvara/pAshupata theories as un-Vedic, Sarvajnatman ends his work with an invocation to Vishnu's Supremely Auspicious Form and Pastimes: [SSSM:1]

bhujaN^gamAN^ga shAyine vihaN^gamAN^ga gAmine

turaN^gamAN^ga bhedine namo rathAN^ga dhAriNe

                                                                                       [Concluding verse of Sankshepa Sariraka]

As for umA-mahEshvara, Sureshvara says that their mutual affection is laukIka i.e., worldly, and hence subject to the three modes of prakRti. This reference is found in Yajnavalkya's dialogue with Maitreyi, as told by Sureshvara in his Brihadaranyaka Bhashya Vartika. After commending Maitreyi thus (Br.Up.Bhas.Vart. 2.4.67-68):

"All persons, by their own nature, give up a person who is seeking liberation. You however do not wish to abandon me even while I am seeking for liberation, because of your intense devotion to me Unable to endure separation from me, you wish to follow me even in liberation with the full desire of being one with me.", 

Yajnavalkya, according to Sureshvaracharya, tells Maitreyi thus (2.4.69): [BrUpBhV:4]

atisnehApakR^iShTomA dehArdhaM shUlinaH shritA

tvaM tu sarvAtmanA AtmAnaM kR^itsnaM mAm Aptmuicchasi

Translation: Carried away by great love, Uma occupied half of the trident-bearer's (Shiva's) body body. You, however, wish to secure the whole of me, the Self, by your whole self.

Thus, all the early advaitins where Vaishnava in their theology and faith.

In light of all this, will our friend honestly and loudly proclaim that he rejects Adi Shankara, in addition to retracting the comment "Adi Shankara established 6 sects (Shanmatha Sthapana) viz.  Shaivism, Vaishnavism, Shaktism, Koumaram, Ganapatyam, Souram." from his introductory page? Will he stop using any of the stOtras praising Shiva as supreme that have been wrongly attributed to Adi Shankara in his arguments? It would be interesting to see how far our friend's honesty carries him.

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Conclusion

Sri Vedanta Desika in tAtparya candrikA, commenting on the shlOka 18.66 of Bhagavad Gita, points out thus (the interested reader can do a fact check at the Gita Supersite 2.0 web page, the details of which are given in the References section):

"pishAca-rantideva-gupta-shaN^kara-yAdavaprakAsha-bhAskara-nArAyaNAryayaj~nasvAmi-prabhR^itibhiH svaM svaM matamAsthitaiH parashshatairbhAShyakR^idbhiH asmatsiddhAntatIrthakaraishca bhagavadyAmunAcAryabhAShyakArAdibhiravigItaparigR^ihIto.ayamatra sArArthaH -- bhagavAneva paraM tattvam, ananyasharaNairyathAdhikAraM tadekAshrayaNaM paramadharmaH -- iti"

Gist: "The conclusion 'Bhagavan (Narayana) is the Supreme Brahman. Taking refuge in Him alone, and resorting to none else is the highest of all dharmas.'-this has been unanimously accepted as the essence of the Bhagavad Gita by Shankara, Bhaskara, Yadavaprakasha, Narayanarya, Yajnasvami and others, though they were different in philosophy".

This is observation of Vedanta Desika is being conveniently hidden/forgotten by anti-Vaishnavites who claim that Ramanuja or other later Vaishnavas started maligning Shiva by preaching ananya bhakti and viShNu sarvOttamatvam .

Truth will always prevail no matter how hard detractors try. Anti-Vaishnavism will fail because it is anti-Veda. Bhagavan Manu states thus:

yā vedabāhyāḥ smṛtayo yāś ca kāś ca kudṛṣṭayaḥ /

sarvās tā niṣphalāḥ pretya tamoniṣṭhā hi tāḥ smṛtāḥ // 12.95 //

utpadyante cyavante ca yāny ato 'nyāni kāni cit /

tāny arvākkālikatayā niṣphalāny anṛtāni ca // 12.96 //

[All those traditions (smriti) and those despicable systems of philosophy, which are not based on the Veda, produce no reward after death; for they are declared to be founded on Darkness. All those (doctrines), differing from the (Veda), which spring up and (soon) perish, are worthless and false, because they are of modern date.]

So will the contents and the message of the "mahA pAshupata astra" blog be regarded, since it contains many newly invented and newly imagined explanations with newly fabricated logical devices that have no trace of existence in past traditions. They are also fundamentally flawed. 

Our opponent's blog contradicts the Vedas, pUrvAcAryas, and the Supreme Purusha of the Vedas. Thus, it is a work that knowledgeable and neutral people can read and have a good laugh at.

What to say of the crushing power and compassionate grace of Shri Lakshmi Narasimha, the parabrahman!

He indeed is the destroyer of the foes of vaiShNavas, shredding them into bits with the sharp nails of logic!

I am but an instrument at the Supreme Vishnu's hand; whatever good may come out of my writing will go to show His glory alone.

Humble prostrations to bhAgavatas of every sect who worship Lord Shriman Narayana as the Supreme.

|| sarvaM shrIman nArAyaNArpaNamastu ||

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Appendices

The works of Shri Ramasubba Shastri of Tiruvisanallur

Coming soon! Keep checking this page periodically.

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Appayya Dikshita’s desperation, confession, and confusion

Coming soon! Keep checking this page periodically.

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References

Note: Most of the links provided with the references contain scanned pages (courtesy of Digital Library of India) from original books. The entire book can be downloaded from these links. Links from Göttingen Register of Electronic Texts in Indian Languages are as [Göt]. English translations are indicated as (tr.) where available.

[BrSuBhS]

Adi Shankara’s Brahma Sutra Bhashya:

[Göt.:Chapter 1][Göt.:Chapter 2][Göt.:Chapter 3][Göt.:Chapter 4]

The Brahmasutra Shankara-Bhashyam, with the commentaries Ratnaprabha, Bhamati, and Nyayanirnaya of Shri-Govindananda, Vachaspati, and Anandagiri”, Ed. 2, edited by Mahadeva Shastri Barkare, Nirnaya Sagar press, Bombay, 1909. [Link] (orig.)

  1. Adhyaya 2, Pada 1, Sutra 1 (pp. 348), retrieved from [1] and [2] (tr.)

  1. Adhyaya 2, Pada 2, Sutra 42 (pp. 494-495), retrieved from [1], [2], and English (tr.) [3]

[BrSuBhB]

Bhaskara’s Brahma Sutra Bhashya:

Brahma Sutra, with a commentary by Bhaskaracharya, Part I”, the Chowkhambika Sanskrit Series (A collection of rare & extraordinary Sanskrit works), vol. ??, no. 70, Vidya Vilas Press, Benaras, 1902. [Link] (orig.)

  1. Adhyaya 2, Pada 1, Sutra 1 (pp. 87-88), retrieved from [1] and [2]

[GBhS]

Adi Shankara’s Gita Bhashya:

[Göt.: up to Chapter 17]

The Bhagavad-Gita Bhashya”, Shri Shankara Granthavali - Complete Works of Sri Sankaracharya in the original Sanskrit, Volume 6, Samata Books, Madras, 1982 (first pub. 1910). [Link]

  1. Adhyaya 10, Shloka 8, pp. 283, retrieved from [1]
  2. Introductory section, pp. 4, retrieved from [1]
  3. Introductory section, pp. 1-2, retrieved from [1] and [2]
  4. Adhyaya 11, Shloka 43, pp. 328, retrieved from [1]
  5. Adhyaya 10, Shloka 2, pp. 280, retrieved from [1]
  6. Adhyaya 15, Shlokas 17 & 18, pp. 445, retrieved from [1] and [2]
  7. Adhyaya 15, Shloka 15, pp. 443, retrieved from [1]
  8. Adhyaya 9, Shlokas 23-25, pp. , retrieved from [1], [2], and [3]
  9. Adhyaya 6, Shloka 47, pp. 210, retrieved from [1]

The Bhagavad Gita with Eleven Commentaries”, critically edited and thoroughly revised second edition, The Proprietors of the Gujarati Printing Press, Bombay (Mumbai), 1935. [Link] (orig.)

“The Bhagavad-Gita, with the commentary of Sri ankaracharya”, English translation, edited by Alladi Mahadeva Sastri, The “Vedic Religion” series, Mysore, 1901. [Link] (tr.)

“Gita Supersite 2.0”, contains original Sanskrit verses, English translations, various commentaries in Sanskrit and their English translations, in Unicode Text format. URL: http://202.3.77.102/acquia/?q=node/20

[BrUBhS]

Brihadaranyaka Upanishad - Adi Shankara’s commentary

[Göt.]

Brhadaranyaka Upanishad - Shankara Bhashya with Anandagiri’s Tika”, edited by M. C. Apte, Anandashrama Sanskrit Series, no. 15, Anandashrama Press, 1891. [Link] (orig.)

  1. Verse 3, section 3.7 (antaryAmi brAhmaNa), pp. 450, retrieved from [1]

Text:

“ya īdṛgīśvaro nārāyaṇākhyaḥ, pṛthirvī pṛthivīdevatām, yamayati niyamayati svavyāpāre, antaro 'bhyantarastiṣṭhan, eṣa ta ātmā, te tava, mama ca sarvabhūtānāṃ”

[MuUBhS]

Mundaka Upanishad - Adi Shankara’s commentary

The Mundaka Upanishad with Sri Shankara’s commentary”, edited with notes by Swami Satchidanandendra Saraswati, Adhyatma Prakasha Karyalaya, Holenarsipur, 1960. [Link] (orig.)

  1. Second Mundaka, Section 1, Verse 4, pp. 50-51, retrieved from [1] and [2]

Text:

ESha dEvO viShNur anantaH | prathamasharIrI trailOkyadEhOpadhiH sarvEShAM bhUtAnAm antarAtmA |

Mundaka Upanishad, with the commentary of Shankaracharya”, edited by Pt. Shridhara Shastri Pathak, Lokasangraha Press, Pune, 1925. [Link] (orig.)

[KUpBhS]

Katha Upanishad - Adi Shankara’s commentary

Kathakopanishad - Shankara’s Bhashya with Tika”, Anandashrama Sanskrit Series, no. 7, pub. by Hari Narayan Apte, Anandashrama Press, 1906. [Link] (orig.)

  1. Adhyaya 1, Valli (section) 3, Verse 9, pp. 66, retrieved from [1] 

Text:

tad viShNOr vyApanashIlasya brahmaNaH paramAtmanaH vAsudevAkhyasya paraM prakR^iShTam padaM sthAnaM satattvaM ityetad-asAv-Apnoti vidvAn ||

[SrkBh]

Srikantha Bhashya (commentary) on the Brahma Sutra

“Srikantha Bhasya or Commentary of Srikantha on the Brahma Sutras (in English)”, Doctrine of Srikantha vol. II, Pracyavani Research Series, vol. XI, ed. by Dr. Roma Chaudhuri, Calcutta, Apr. 1959. [Link] (tr.)

  1. Sutra 1.3.42, pp. 140, retrieved from [1]

[GuMS]

Gudhartha Dipika - a commentary on the Bhagavad Gita by Madhusudana Sarasvati

[Göt.]

  1. Adhyaya 15, Shloka 18 (verse 15.18), retrieved from [1]

[RVmsKD]

Raghuvamsa of Kalidasa

[Göt.]

  1. Verse 3.49, retrieved from [1]

[ChUpBhS]

Adi Shankara’s Bhashya (commentary) on the Chandogya Upanishad

[Göt.]

Samaveda’s Chandogya Upanishad, with the Bhashya of Shri Shankaracharya...”, Advaita Grantha Ratna Manjusha Ratna, no. 24, ed. by Pandit Subrahmanya Shastri, Maharishi Research Institute, Varanasi, 1982. [Link] (orig.)

  1. Verse 8.12.3, pp. 417, retrieved from [1]

[VSBhS]

Adi Shankara’s Vishnu Sahasranama Bhashya

Visnusahasranama with the Bhasya of Sri Samkaracarya, translated into English”, ed. by R. Ananthakrishna Sastry, The Adyar Library and Research Centre, 1980. [Link] (orig. & tr.)

  1. Nama 848 of 1000, pp. 361-362, retrieved from [1] and [2]
  2. Nama 49 of 1000, pp. 109, retrieved from [3]

[BrUpBhV]

Suresvara’s Brihadaranyaka Upanishad Bhashya Vartika

Brihadaranyaka-upanishad-bhashya-vartikam of Srimat Suresvaracarya, with the gloss of Anandagiri called Shastraprakashika”, Parts 2 & 3, Anandashrama Sanskrit Series, no. 16, ed. by M. C. Apte, Anandashrama Press, 1894. [Link (part 3)] (orig.)

  1. Adhyaya 3, Brahmana 7, Verse 39-44, pp. 1286-1287, retrieved from [1] and [2]

  1. Adhyaya 1, Brahmana 4, Verse 135, pp. 135, retrieved from [1].

  1. Adhyaya 2, Brahmana 1, Verse 268, pp. 931, retrieved from [1].

  1. Adhyaya 2, Brahmana 4, Verse 69, pp. 1045, retrieved from [1].

[SSSM]

Sanksepa Sariraka of Sarvajnatma Muni (10th C)

Text with the commentary of Ramatirtha (orig.) in Sanskrit [Link]

  1. Verse 1.1, pp. 3, retrieved from [1] & concluding verse (4.63), retrived from [2]

[TASyB]

Sayana’s commentary on the Taittiriya Aranyaka

The Taittiriya  Aranyaka of the Black Yajur Veda, with the commentary of Sayanacharya”, ed. by Rajendralala Mitra, Bibliotheca Indica - A Collection of Oriental Works, Asiatic Society of Bengal, 1872. [Link] (orig.)

  1. Prapathaka 10, Anuvaka 11, pp. 824, retrieved from [1]

  1. Prapathaka 3, Anuvaka 12, pp. 327, retrieved from [2]

[TABBB]

Bhatta Bhaskara’s commentary on the Taittiriya Aranyaka

The Taittiriya Aranyaka, with the commentary of Bhatta Bhaskara Misra”, Volumes I & II, ed. by A. Mahadeva Sastri and K. Rangacharya, Governmental Oriental Library Series, Bibliotheca Sanskrita, no. 26 & 27, Mysore, 1900 & 1902. [Link (Vol. I)] [Link (Vol. 2)]

  1. Prapathaka 3, Anuvaka 12, pp. 293, retrieved from [1]

  1. Prapathaka 6, Anuvaka 11, pp. 124, retrieved from [2]

[Nym]

Narayana Bhatta’s Narayaneeyam with commentary

The Narayaniya of Narayana Bhatta, with the commentary Bhaktapriya of Desamangala Varya”, ed. by T. Ganapati Sastri, Trivandrum Sanskrit Series, no. XVIII, Travancore Government Press, 1912. [Link]

  1. Adhyaya 90, Shloka 5 and commentary, retrieved from [1]

[Back to contents]

Reading list for the interested

[SrKSL]

Srikanta Samalochanam:

Srikanta Samalochanam” (in Sanskrit orig.) by Varadacharya, Srimad Vedanta Desika Vihara Sabha, Mysore, 1963. [Link]

A work in Sanskrit that proves, among other things, the following:

  1. The so-called Srikanta Bhashya that poses to be of pre-Ramanuja time is actually a work of the 16th century or later.
  2. Shiva-Vishishtadvaita is a recently devised bogus system, and that Vishishtadvaita has always been a monopoly of Vaishnavas traditionally.
  3. Srikanta Bhashya steals ideas from Ramanuja’s Sribhashya. This has been pointed out by Purushottama and Giridhara of the Vallabha school of Vedanta, who call Srikanta as “rAmAnuja mata cOra (one who stole ideas from Ramanuja’s siddhanta)”.
  4. Advaitins should reject Appayya Dikshita’s Shiva-paratva works, since they contradict and condemn Adi Shankara in many places.
  5. Adi Shankara was Vaishnava, and did not write stotras praising Shiva, Ganapati, Ambika, Skanda, etc. and he did not wear Shaivite ashes (vibhoothi) all over his body.

[SVaiKI]

“Sankararum Vainavamum” -- A work in Tamil that establishes beyond doubt that Adi Shankara held only Vishnu/Narayana as Saguna Brahman.

Sankararum Vainavamum (சங்கரரும் வைணவமும்)”, Sri S. Krishnaswamy Iyengar (Puthur/Puttur Swami - editor of Srivaishnava Sudarshanam), Sri Vaishnava sri, Srirangam, 1965-1971. [Link]

[Back to contents]

290 comments :

  1. This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.

    ReplyDelete
  2. Dear Santosh Kumar,

    You should at least have the decency to respect our right to be anonymous and stop posting personal information. Anyway, here is the information that you posted:

    ===================
    1. You said in shiva sahasranama there is no mention of name narayana to shiva. Your point is incorrect. he has a name "jalEshayah" (Shiva sleeps on waters as Narayana.
    Lalita sahasranama says from her nails emerged dasa-avataras of narayana in her fight with bhandasura. the same purana has a dialog by Vishnu where he says that he is the masculine form of lalita (uma).

    2. it made me laugh to see you creating "narayanastra" as your blog's name. Don't you know that narayanastra when fired it invokes "shataghniS" (rudras) for destruction. And also it is not an infallible astra. it can be easily baffled by prostrating before it. "namaskara mudra" can pacify it. However pashupatastra has no such limitations.

    3. you bank upon the kaliyugi-acharyas a lot. go ahead. I bank upon the ancient sages and their impartial and authentic works. your vaishnavism ahs interpolated many scriptures, hence they need to be studied with logic and resoning. e.g., shiva gita was a part of Padma purana, now where is it in that purana? how did it disappear? there is no "rama rameti" verse in actual Vishnu sahasranama in Mahabharata, there is no testimony given by shiva or any other gods there in Mahabharata which contains the original version of Vishnu sahasranama. but the rama rameti rame raame ..verse has been added in Padma purana version. There are no shaivite interpolations in scriptures as far as I know, but vaishnavaite interpolations are umpteen.

    4. Your any amount of noise is not going to cast any impact on me. kindly do not waste your time on me. If you are retired and has lot of time, do spend it in hari-nama-sankeertana, instead of useless articles. Your efforts are not going to deter me from my writings, so logically why should you waste your energya nd time on me?

    5. I'm going to prove shiva sahasranama section as authentic in some months. your logic of no commentaries done means unauthentic is flawed. there are no commentaries by acharyas on the CBSE books also, that doesn't mean those books are bogus. There are no testimonies given by acharyas on Socrates's beliefs that doesn't mean Socrates never existed and his beliefs were false. there are no commentaries by acharyas on yuri Gagarin's space travel, that doesn't eman he never travelled in reality. Wait and watch how I prove the siva sahasranama section of anusasana parva authentic. Just pray to god to give me ample time for that. i don't want to burn midnight oil to refute your baseless claims.
    ====================

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Dear Santosh Kumar,

      The specific purpose of this blog has been met. I know you will keep coming with endless ridiculous attempts at refuting. However, those who have been denied the truth by people such as you who want to hide inconvenient truths from innocents.


      Your point about the Rudras and Narayanastra only comes to show that the 11 Rudras are specifically under the control of nArAyaNa ultimately.

      nArAyaNAstra can only be conquered with true Sharanagati to nArAyaNa. The pANDavas believed in Lord Krishna as their sole refuge.

      I specifically ask for the "name" nArAyaNa in your Lalita/Shiva Sahasranamas. Vedas specifically use nArAyaNa nAma to denote brahman. Where is the nAma?

      Lalita Sahasranama is not authentic. Ten avataras of Vishnu being generated from Lalita is a ridiculous suggestion. Also ridiculous is Lalita Sahasranama's claim that it is better than Vishnu Sahasranama and that "only fools regard Vishnu Sahasranama as supreme".

      Only Vishnu Sahasranama is prAcIna. It is mentioned in Ayurvedic texts such as caraka saMhitA as possessing supreme healing powers.

      Agreed that some of the phala shruti portions of Vishnu Sahasranama are later additions. Nobody claims it as part of Mahabharata. They are just recited in pArAyaNa.

      Simply showing a name that means "one who rests in water" does not have any force. The entire universe and all the Jivatmas in it rest on water during praLaya (in Shri Narayana's nAbhi).

      "You are relying on Kaliyugi AchAryas" - what a joke. You won't even accept dvApara yuga AcArya, Vyasa's innumerable statements in the mahAbhArata which has been traditionally accepted as authentic.

      "satyaM satyaM punaH satyaM uddhRtya bhujaM ucyatE
      vEdAt shAstraM paraM nAsti na daivaM kEshavAt paraM"

      "AlODya sarva shAstrANi vicArya ca punaH punaH
      idamEkam sunishpannaM dhyEyOn nArAyaNaH sadA"

      "tattvaM jij~nAsamANAnAM hEtubhiH sarvatO mukhaiH
      tattvamEkO mahAyOgI harir nArAyaNaH smRtaH"

      "yE ca vEdavidO viprAH yE ca adhyAtmavidO janAH
      tE vadanti mahAtmAnaM kRShNaM dharmaM sanAtanaM"

      "viShNur AtmA bhagavatO bhavasya"

      and from Treta Yuga, Valmiki:

      "adhikaM mEnirE viShNuM"

      So all of these are bogus and interpolated by Vaishnavas, but your Shiva Sahasranama, which were not even quoted by Shaiva Acharyas, is authentic! How neutral!!??

      Delete
  3. LMAO, what an asinine reply.

    1) "jalEshayah" is not the equivalent of nArAyaNa. The name nArAyaNa encompasses all the lakshanas of parabrahman and unlike "jalEshayah", it is a proper noun. Retarded logic here.

    Shaivites themselves have accepted that nArAyaNa is a proper noun and have not flouted panini. Refer Appayya Dikshitar's works. He does not equate nArAyaNa to shiva, but rather tries to prove that shiva is greater than nArAyaNa. Similarly, the Shiva Sahasranama, which is a bogus text in itself, does not refer to nArAyaNa, but only calls Shiva as nArAyaNapriyaH, proving that the interpolater was well versed in grammar anyhow!

    Panini did not 'invent' grammar, but codified existing grammar. And all vaidikas have accepted it, as have shaivites.

    2) Your comment reveals the ignorance you bask in. The nArAyaNastra, unlike other astras has absolutely no counter. It is unstoppable EXCEPT as you said, the namaskAra mudra, which is surrender. So, what it means is that it is the Astra of the Supreme Brahman, Vishnu. The only way to pacify Vishnu is to surrender before him. And if you try to oppose him, you will be destroyed. Just as when Bhima tried to oppose the astra and it just grew fiercer!

    The fact that nArAyaNastra uses rudras for destruction shows that these rudras are VIBHUTIS of Narayana and subject to do whatever he commands! Thanks for showing that. RudrAnAm SankarAs casmi, says bhagavan.

    Shows you lack even a modicum of knowledge. This very fact reveals Vishnu is Parabrahman and his astra is the superiormost. The very compassion that is parabrahman has made it easy to surrender to him; he forgives everything. But if you oppose him, you will be destroyed!

    3) You bank on inauthentic upanishads, contradictory quotes, bogus stotras and interpolations. That's been your method all along. You say Bhagavata Purana is bogus, but use 'Devi Bhagavatam' which is considered inauthentic by every vaidika. You say Brahma is not red, but in quoting one of your own bogus scriptures, but fail to notice that even there Brahma is mentioned as red in color. You say Vishnu Sahasranama, Santi Parva etc are interpolations, but refuse to acknowledge Shiva Sahasranama is the only bogus interpolation!

    4) We will waste your time on you. Yes, we are busy, but will be posting quite a lot. A whole vyAkhyAna on Rudram as per Vaishnavite (Parama Vaidika) tradition is coming up, along with proofs from Shankara, Ramanuja and Madhva about the supremacy of Vishnu.

    Your pasupatastra (actually, you do not even have an astra, just a twig, as I said, but nonetheless...) can be destroyed by the nArAyaNastra. But all you can do before the nArAyaNastra is surrender humbly to nullify it!

    5) Even if you stand on one leg doing penance for a 1000 years, even your ishta devata Shiva will not be able to help you prove that shiva sahasranama is authentic. Because Shiva is a parama vaishnava bhakta himself, we have respect for him. Stop blabbering about Socrates and what-not.

    Sarvam sri krishnarpanamastu.

    ReplyDelete
  4. @HBB,

    I thought your pen name is casual and hence called ur your original name. i'm Sorry for that!

    @unknown,

    expected to see you, Mr. unknown also here. Vaishnavas always attack in groups which i had always observed. Good that you are uplifting the glory of being identical to a herd of sheeps. You guys cannot become like a lion! don't worry, i may be slow, but will refute your every flawed understanding.

    Wait for my analysis on shiva sahasranama episode dear friends! it will be clear whether i need to stand for 1000 years in penance or simply few months to find a free time to write it down.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Santosh Kumar, why don't you invite the readers of your blog to my page? I have provided a link to your site, I think it would be enlightening for everyone to see every side impartially.

      Delete
    2. Thanks for the suggestion. But sorry to say that i cannot accept that now.

      i plan to write few blockbuster articles in future which would automatically refute all your arguements. from my past articles at least i hope that you would agree that I never put "just" english. I put my thoughts followed with reference from scriptures.
      so, when I will write new articles covering all the arguments what you did. obviously I would follow my same style of putting my counter arguments with references. so readers of my blog would automatically understand your points as well as my views. that way i want to serve my audience. Audience is always the king, they have the necessary intelligence to understand if i am fooling them or if my writeups are logically matching with their intelligence. so, i wish to keep my audience on my blog and read my future articles (refutations) and wish to leave it upto them to accept/reject as per their choice as always.
      summary is - i need not invite them here. my readers would continue to be my readers.

      Delete
  5. @HBB sir and UNKNOWN sir,

    Earlier you didn't have this blog, so you used to post comments on my blog. Now since you have opened a new blog, you may pls continue writing here. Please don't comment on my blog. it diverts my attention and makes me spend considerable time in responding to your points there or here. I have my MBA exams lined up from this weekend, and in parallel have my regular job also to handle. I wish to not divert my attention, hence i would not visit your blog now onwards till i get some breathing space. Telling you this because you may comment here something and may expect me to answer. i wanted to reduce your wait time. Please do not post any queries to me here or there; you yourself go ahead with blogging whatever you think is appropriate to you in your blog (this one).

    You have already given me good topics to write artiles on. i am thankful to both of you. I'll write the refutational articles when time permits, may be few months in future. Till that time there is no usefulness for me visiting your blog or in answering your counters. You both are good at provocation, i need to be careful from you both. Last time also i had no time but your comments provoked me to spend 2 late nights to write article (rudra of sevataswatara and rudram is umapati), but as a result of less sleep i couldn't focus in a meeting in office and got scoldings from my manager. I learnt to not get carried away with the flow. Hence i will use my good amount of comfortable time to write articles, i don't have much time like you to spend on these regularly. Moreover, my blog is my property, and hence i should have the sole decision of when to write and what to write, unnecessarily your debates were influencing my mind, but i could control it now. For me there is no hurry, but there is hari who would drive my chariot towards shiva-dharma. :-)

    good to interact with both of you. Bye!

    ReplyDelete
  6. Hi Santosh Kumar,

    Your lack of will to publish our link on your page shows that you have formidable arguments to counter.

    Nobody will buy your argument that "kali yugi" saints are not to be relied. Try posting this remark that Adi Shankaracharya is a "kali yugi" saint and is not to be relied upon. I know you won't since you will then lose all your smArtha friends.

    You have turned into a two-faced person who utters gibberish to score ego-satisfying points in debates with us here, while maintaining a different image on your blog page. Do you sincerely think that Lord Shiva will be pleased by this?

    Anyways, keep going. Good bye!

    ReplyDelete
  7. I wish to add some points here. Just because some work was not commented upon before 16th century doesn't mean they are interpolated. Why, there seem to be no commentaries on upanishads in 3000 BC. Does that make upanishads not eternal?

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Dear friend,

      You do not seem to understand my argument. What I am saying here is that only traditionally accepted pramANas which have met the test of critical scrutiny should be considered as primary evidence.

      Btw, which specific text are you referring to here?

      Delete
    2. Dear Humble Bhagavata Bandhu,

      That was in reference to your opinion about Shivasahasranama and some other works.

      My point was that if interpolation had to happen, it could've happened anytime. not just 500 years or 1000 years before. Besides, after Ramanuja's arrival, vasihanvam has been the strongest religion in our land. I don't see how shaivas could've interpolated against that. It is other way around, more often than not. And just because vedantins reject shaiva works, they don't become false. Why, Vedanta itself is rejected by shaivas.

      Also i don't buy the idea of Shankaracharya being neutral scholar. He had a doctrine to prove just like others. I'm not convinced he was vaishnava either. Ramanuja, Vedanta desika, madhva and others did not use nice words about shankaracharya. To treat a fellow "vaishnava" like that eventhough he is philosophically different?

      Regards,
      *****

      Delete
    3. Dear friend,

      I think the articles here speak for themselves and your questions have already been answered there. Kindly read them carefully to get clarifications on your questions.

      I will address a few things-

      Regarding Shiva Sahasranama, why is Vishnu Sahasranama so popular even before the time of Ramanuja (Banabhatta, a Shiva devotee, praises it), and has commentaries by many luminaries, whereas Shiva Sahasranama is not treated so?

      You said: I don't see how shaivas could've interpolated against that. It is other way around, more often than not.

      I don't see any proofs for your statement above.

      You said: Also i don't buy the idea of Shankaracharya being neutral scholar.

      Pardon me, but I said that Shankaracharya is *widely considered* to be neutral.

      You said: I'm not convinced he was vaishnava either. Ramanuja, Vedanta desika, madhva and others did not use nice words about shankaracharya.

      For your information, every prominent school of Vedanta is Vaishnava in its foundations.

      If Shankara was not Vaishnava in theology, what was he? In his Bhashyas Shankara clearly says Narayana is supreme. He specifically says "Lord Krishna's devotees, the Vaishnavas, attain the eternal fruit of Moksha. The worshipers of other dEvatas reach limited results, even though their efforts may be similar" (Gita Bhashya 9.25). He also agrees that Shiva was created by Brahma, in Brihadaranyaka Upanishad Bhashya.

      Nowhere have Madhva, Ramanuja, or Vedanta Desika attacked Shankara personally with unkind words, for your information. There have also been debates between Vishistadvaitins and Dvaitins and this was on the same level as well.

      Delete
  8. Dear sir,
    I want to know if you are going to provide us with the explanation of the entire Sri Rudram>Please reply soon

    Your servant

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Dear Munshi,

      The Rudram explanation was written by a friend of mine, as I mentioned. He is pretty busy now with other things. I myself do not have the depth in knowledge in this subject. Apologies.

      Your servant.

      Delete
  9. respected Sir of this blog,


    I have a few questions:


    Actually nobody(even acharyas and scholars and pundits) knows who is Siva and why does he look like this.


    1. does any (puranas ,vedas, upanishads, mahabharata,bhagavad gita, bhagavatam) mention any reason why siva wears a tiger skin,hold snakes in his hands,neck ,why he often lives in a graveyard?

    Answer: NOTHING

    2.does any(all puranas,vedas,upanishads ,mahabharata,bhagadvad gita, bhagavatam) mention any reason why MAHA SHIVARATRI is important for
    Siva and why he like it?

    Answer: NOTHING



    some scholars, pundits , acharyas may give following answers :

    1. siva does not like human body. he wears ash to to reduce the affection to his body.He wants to show world that body is temporary everything
    including this world will be reduced to ashes.

    2. MAHA SHIVARATRI is wedding day of Siva and parvati . Some say It is the day when siva swallowed poison and saved world


    These answers are given by Acharyas, pundits ,Scholars. But actually no purana, vedas,or anything has answers to the above questions.


    SOME MORE EXPLANATION :

    1. Tamasic puranas means a purana which we cannot easily understand. Since we cannot understand we cannot conclude whether they are authentic or unauthentic . they have a lot of depth and meaning which we cannot access.

    Tamasic puranas are those which does not give any answers LIKE
    who is human being ?
    what are his goals ?
    what should he achieve? etc...


    for example skanda purana and siva purana describes the family of Lord Siva.

    1. we all know that Sati, the younger duaghter of Daksha wanted to marry Siva. But it does not answer questions like
    why a beautiful woman like Sati wanted to marry a person who has nothing to wear, lives in the companion of ghosts, lives in
    graveyards no proper house to live in ?
    2. even though all saiva puranas GLORIFY SIVA they do not answer why siva wears a tiger skin lives in grave yard lives in
    kailash mountain(now a part of China)

    3. skanda purana mentions that Kasi(now Varanasi) is most dearer to Siva than any other place. But it does not give any reason
    why SIVA LOVES KASI?

    4. all puranas mention that Siva is easily pleased and he gives away boons very quickly . but no purana mention why is he so easily
    pleased than Brahma and Vishnu.


    5. we all know that Siva is in constant meditation. No purana, vedas or anything does not mention whom siva meditates.

    some vaishnava scholars may say that he meditates on Vishnu and some say he is "GREATEST VAISHNAVA".
    but actually NOBODY KNOWS WHOM SIVA MEDITATES?

    let us assume this is true. if it is then why some vaishnavas hate Siva, a devotee of Vishnu? why they degrade Siva? THIS question has no answers.







    ReplyDelete
  10. My dear friends
    I will ask you one single question. Please answer it truthfully.
    Have any one of you seen your Vishnu? If not, all your debate must be merely based on scriptural knowledge which is the description of the direct experiences- aparokshanubhuti of OTHERS . And they have described the truth variously. E.g. Vyasa who is the auther of Vishnu Purana is also the author of Shiva Purana.He has described Vishnu as the supreme in Vishnu Purana and Shiva in the same way in Shiva Purana. How will you reconcile both these contradicting statements by the same author? Was he a hypocrite? No of course not! the only reconciliation is that our Hindu dharma is the most democratic as far as Upasana is concerned. It makes provisions for all -Shaivaites Vaishnavites Shaktas Ganaptyas to follow their chosen ideal.The follower of a certain deity has the psychological need to say that his deity is all-powerful and supreme and all other deities are inferior to it otherwise he will not be ready to accept that deity as his chosen ideal and his spiritual progress will be hampered.With this view the sages have described various deities as omnipotent and omniscient and the one without a second.If this re conciliatory view is not accepted we will have to admit that those seers were were not very much enlightened beings as we popularly believe but just bumpkins groping in the dark about who is the supreme deity.

    So my advice is -please refrain from attacking other faiths. Go on your own chosen path.Realize your Vishnu and then talk with authority of direct perception.Until then all of you are like mere children quarreling over the thing about which you have merely heard from the scriptures and which is still unknown to you. A book which has description of Delhi is useful in as much as it keeps up our interest in seeing the place by ourselves and guides us to it. But you cant compare seeing Delhi directly with the knowledge of Delhi in a book. So stop quarreling. Gladly think that Vishnu is Supreme and try to realize him in your heart but don't make others wear the same shirt that fits you best.It is impossible.This has been done time and again in the history of the world and such attempts have failed miserably.The muslims tried to thrust their concept of God on everybody on the point of their swords.The Chrishtrens have also done the same.And how far they have succeeded? Yet the world abounds in variegated pantheon of deities.

    All knots of heart are, broken all doubts are put to rest,all quarrels abate and peace reigns when one has the direct experience of the Supreme Truth-thus says the Shruti. Always keep this in mind.

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  11. Abhijit,

    All your objections have been answered by the great Ramanuja in his Vedartha Sangraha. Hence, please avoid rash comments like: "If this re conciliatory view is not accepted we will have to admit that those seers were were not very much enlightened beings as we popularly believe but just bumpkins groping in the dark about who is the supreme deity." and "Until then all of you are like mere children quarreling over the thing about which you have merely heard from the scriptures and which is still unknown to you."

    Vyasa did not write Puranas. The Puranas were first expounded by chaturmukha brahmA in various kalpas, and they were retold by the Rishis *as they were recited by brahmA to them*, and vyAsa propagated the same to romaharShaNa etc.

    Please refer to the "Tamasatva of Certain Puranas" article on this page, and your doubts will be cleared.

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  12. My Dear Bhagavata Bandhu
    Chaturmukha Brahma expounded the Puranas? Very well. Do you know that it had been the vogue with Sanskrit writers to write in the name of Shiva,Vishnu or Brahma ? Puranas are not the revealed texts like the Vedas.They are explanatory to the Vedas. Thats why when they don't conform with the Vedas their authority is discarded.Moreover even if they were RETOLD, were the rishis mad to propagate such glaring contradictions? And was even their original expounder Brahma out of his mind to say in Shiva Purana that Shiva is the Supersoul and in the Vishnu Purana the exactly opposite of it?

    Moreover you don't have any other proof of your claims of superiority beyond who said what in whichever scripture.The Shruti itself has declared that the Truth CAN"T be realized merely by scriptural studies (na vedadhyayanena) or mere logical reasoning(na esha tarkena matirapaneya-Kathopanishad) Beyond your fond beliefs and scriptural citations,you have nothing more to show to the world.Do you think the scientific minds of today will accept everything just on the basis that it has been said by a past luminary in a certain scripture or by you quarreling Mahnubhavas? Show us something more than this.I know from the scriptures that the Lord being subtlest of the subtle can't be an object of laboratory experiments. And scriptures say that He is to be Realized in the cave of the heart by devotion which is an attribute of the purified mind.But can any one of you say that you have REALIZED the lord in your heart? If you have,I will have no argument with you my friend.I will surrender unconditionally at the feet of you mahatmas and accept whatever you say.

    But before that who am I to trust? You or the Shaivas ,Ramanuja or Shankara or Madhva or Vallabha or ....? To a layman like me the recounter of Puranas- Vyasa and all the other great Acharyas are men of giant intellect and purified souls.To my weak intellect and tottering powers of logic they all seem to be Aptas whose sincerity of purpose can't be doubted. People like yourself who have great reasoning skills ; have scriptural citations and their interpretations on the tip of their tongues seem all reverential to me and I am always inspired with awe because of your abilities. I can't say that Ramanuja is telling the truth and Shankara is lying.You have the licence to say that.I don't have that privilege. My poor logic tells me that since all these Acharyas and Vyasa himself is stating contradictory truths about the nature of the Supreme Reality and as their truthfulness can't be doubted,they must be stating different facets of the reality as comprehended from different perspectives of the Transcendental Experience.All these are necessary to suit men of different temperaments or in various states of spiritual progress.I would not ask you to forsake your belief in Vishnu's Supremacy or attack your faith nor should you do that in my case if I'm a Shaivaite. Why should you forcibly make me drink tea if I prefer coffee ? Do you think that God is infinite? well I also think so.Then let's not limit Him by saying that He is only this and not that. That would be blasphemy. He can have innumerable forms, attributes and the ways leading to Him are also innumerable.This is His grandeur.Let everyone go on their chosen path,realize the truth and after that let them proclaim it to the world.
    Regards.

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    Replies
    1. Dear Abhijit,

      We have stated clearly in the "tAmasatva of purANas" page at the end that the purANas are propagated for people of different inclinations purposely by the rishis. For those of tAmasic mind, the tAmasic purAnams are present. This of course, is dependent on karma.

      And just because different purANas are propagated for people of different inclinations, it does not mean that they are all equal. The tAmasic mind is kept from going astray into nAstika-vAda by means of the tAmasa purANas. Similar thing is true for rAjasa purANas. Btw, the purANas themselves state this.

      Secondly, your comment that truth cannot be realised by scriptures is a direct contradiction of the brahma sUtra "sAstrayOnitvAth". The statements in the vedas saying that truth cannot be realised by mananam, sravanam, etc only means that the grace of brahman is required for all this and also that the actual paravidya is brahma sAkshAtkAratvam which is obtained by realization and not the actual study of the veda itself.

      Thirdly, the scriptures do identify brahman as Vishnu only. The scriptures also give a clear description of the being in the heart as a lion, as lotus eyed, as having the effulgence of lakshmi, etc so they are not vague. How this is the case, is described in texts like Agama prAmANya and vEdArtha saMgraha. They are authored by Yamunacharya and Ramanujacharya, who are luminaries and not "bickering mahAnubhAvas" as you claim. Moreover, Shankara also has held Vishnu only as the Highest, and I have given many proofs. Try challenging to refute this.

      You yourself have admitted that your logic is poor. It is poor logic to assume that the statements of all the AchAryas (Shaiva/Vaishnava/Advaita/Madhva) are equally valid, even if they are contradictory!

      Saying Shiva is a jiva and vishNu is brahman is not limiting Brahman. Its just a verification that just as you and me are jiva and not Brahman, similarly, Shiva is also jiva and not Brahman. Brahman indeed has infinite names, attributes and indeed has the entire universe with all the jivAs as his body and inseparable attributes. That Brahman is vishNu-nArAyaNa, and yes, Shiva is as much an inseparable attribute of Brahman as you and I are.

      If we were to include Shiva as Brahman merely for the sake of "not limiting" Brahman, we would also have to state that the stool, chair, table, you, me, the asurAs, etc are all Brahman. Of course, this is true when the sarIrAtma bhAva is used, but obviously, its not a literal identification.

      Btw, nobody here is telling you to change your faith, or is forcing you to convert to Vaishnavism. I have only endeavored to present a few truths, but apparently truth is inconvenient for people like you.

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    2. // Chaturmukha Brahma expounded the Puranas? Very well. Do you know that it had been the vogue with Sanskrit writers to write in the name of Shiva,Vishnu or Brahma ? //

      It is typical of nAstikas to say things like these. You seem to think that the purANas are works written by human beings on the earth, like Kalidasa's works. You did not furnish any proof to contradict the statement that the purANas were first narrated to the Rishis by brahmA.

      Delete
  13. Dear Bhagavata Bandhu
    I'm a man of poor logic and I have accepted the fact already for the sake of our debate. So there was no point in you reiterating the fact again.
    But see what my poor logic tells me-you are stating there are tamasika puranas and they are there merely to thwart people from being converted to atheism or agnosticism and the like. This logic is poorer than my proclaimed lack of logical capacity. Do you or your Brahma or Vyasa or the other Rishis think for a moment that darkness can be expelled by darkness? The only way to do it ,brother, is to bring in the light of knowledge.If your Brahmaji or your Vyasa ( I’m deliberately using the term ‘your’ because you are devaluating them by your contorted poor reasoning) were so compassionate they would have told the truth only and not the supposed rigmarole of tamsik nature. Instead of doing this, what your Brahma has done, is merely hold people somehow in the mire of Samsara by creating a delusional distraction in the form of your so called Tamasik Puranas. How sympathetic of him indeed!! Was your Brahma afraid of depletion in the quorum of his audience if people ran away from him and became atheists? I would indeed prefer to be such atheist than a dumb- headed listener to your Brahma’s tamasik verbiage.
    Secondly the Brahamasutra you are pointing at doesn’t mean that Brahman can be directly realized from the scriptures.The Chatuhsutri states - We are now commencing an inquiry into the nature of Brahman from which this phenomenal world comes into existence, is sustained and again merges into It.The Shastras are a means of knowledge (Yonih= pramanam) for this fact because to this conclusion(that Brahman is the Ultimate Cause of this universe) the various seemingly contradictory statements of this Shastra arrive.
    You did not understand the purport of my say clearly. I’m in exact agreement with you that knowledge of Brahman dawns only after realization of the Reality through God’s grace.Trying to counter my say you have only corroborated it. What Shastas are there for then?- So that human beings can understand the fact that God’s grace is necessary to realize the Truth. No shastra can bring Realization, however much you pit your wits and struggle with logic. The Sharvana ,Manana of the Shastras make us INTELLECTUALLY steadfast about the fact of Brahman is the cause of this universe. We CAN NOT realize with our poor intellect the NATURE of Brahman. It is beyond the realm of our intelligence.
    Thirdly mind you- Shastras have attemped to describe the nature of Brahman but they have not stated anything definitely .Sometimes they say Purusho vai Rudrah(TaittiriyaArayanyaka 10.24.1)and somewhere they will say the same about Vishnu( I’m sure you will have a multitude of examples of this). Because of the scriptures being not definite about the nature of Brahman various interpretations of the same shastras by renowned Acharyas have come into existence.That’s the cause why the statements like ‘Na- iti na- iti’ exist. They mean that the Nature of Brahman is beyond intellectual description. ’Iti’ is what we can see perceive or describe i.e. something the intellect can grasp. Now don’t say that your Vishnu is beyond the realm of ’ iti’ and yet has lotus eyes and other attributes which are intellectually perceivable. Again don’t say that Vishnu is Nirguna Brahman beyond perception but when he wants to take a perceivable form his four armed, lotus eyed form rules supreme. Why does he have a special inclination for this form and attributes? Why did he place this form above all other forms? What of those people who don’t like this form? Why does Vishnu imposes the supremacy of a particular form and attributes on all human-heads?

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  14. And how will you decide that Madhva or Ramanuja is stating the fact and a Shaivaite Acharya is not? Do you think that righteous men are born among Vaishnavas only and others merely have treacherous or deluded or confused intellects? And what is wrong in assuming that all these Acharyas are telling the truth only that they are looking at it from different viewpoints? If you and you friend go separately to see Delhi and afterwards describe it to somebody, will your descriptions be exactly the replicas of each other?
    Fourthly your statement that the Ultimate Reality or Brahman is Vishnu only and Shiva ,I ,You and everyone else are Jivas-inseperable attributes of Vishnu is your or Ramanuja’s perception.How will you decide that different perceptions of others are not correct? For the corroboration of this claim you rely on Ramanuja’s statements and his interpretation of the Vedic literature. As you are free to say that others’ interpretations are wrong ,so also others are bound to say that Your and your favourite Ramanuja’s interpretations are wrong. Beyond Ramanuja’s and your intelligence, do you have ANY OTHER PROOF of your claims? Calling me atheist to overpower me will not solve this problem.
    So I tell you –these debates will have no end.You will put forth finer arguments and I will try to counter them with my POOR logical skill and mind you I’m quite hard headed at this. As such I will not accept your version of truth if you can’t provide me some better proof of your claim other than who says what in whichever book written some hundreds of years ago about the true purport of the Vedic literature. Such debates have been going on in this land for thousands of years and they have not reached any final conclusion. Debating is not the goal. The goal is Realization of the Truth in our hearts through Sadhana.I debated with you because some Vaishnavas (you say that you are certainly not one among them-that’s a relief!!! because I will have no objections against you then) are trying to impose their version of truth on everybody’s head and trying to unsettle them from their chosen ideal. So long then!!
    Regards

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  15. Dear Abhijit,

    We have endlessly discussed and I have given answers, but you keep repeating the same questions.

    // This logic is poorer than my proclaimed lack of logical capacity. //

    Lol... Do you think your logic is better than Yamuna's, Ramanuja's, Madhva's or Vedanta Desika's? All of them have somehow missed your point about purANas.

    // Do you or your Brahma or Vyasa or the other Rishis think for a moment that darkness can be expelled by darkness? The only way to do it ,brother, is to bring in the light of knowledge. //

    For a person who is used to darkness, the way to progress is by gradation. The gradation and progression into light should be in this order:

    abrahamic religions < Buddhism, Jainism, neo-advaita-Hinduism < Belief in Vedic scriptures and Rishis < Devotion to Agni, Surya, Indra etc. < Devotion to Shiva parivAra < Devotion to Parabrahman Shriman Narayana

    Exposing someone who is used to darkness to bright light in one step will cause irritation to his eye if not blind him, and he will go back into his darkness which is more comfortable for him, developing aversion for light on the way back. No disrespect is meant if we say that different people are at different stages of spiritual development. We see this happen in practice even today. Take yourself for example; you have an aversion to light when it is presented directly in front of you in the form of Vaishnava scriptures. Again, no disrespect is meant when I say this.

    This is why the compassionate Rishis, Brahma, and ultimately Sriman Narayana propagated false doctrines to suit the tastes of those who are conditioned by prakRti. Of course, there are a select few who are able to jump from the lowest stage to the highest in no time, and that is due to the grace of the Lord.

    We have umpteen proofs that shaiva purANas are classified as tAmasa, in the relevant page. Right here in this page is there one, and you have not cared to look at it:

    agneḥ śivasya māhātmyaṃ tāmaseṣu prakīrtyate /
    rājaseṣu ca māhātmyam adhikaṃ brahmaṇo viduḥ //
    sāttvikeṣu ca kalpeṣu māhātmyam adhikaṃ hareḥ /
    teṣv eva yogasaṃsiddhā gamiṣyanti parāṃ gatim //

    This is in matsya purANa, and it forms the authority for categorizing the purANas in this fashion. It has been quoted by Ramanuja and Yamuna. What is your explanation of this verse???

    (contd.)

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  16. (contd. from previous)

    The Vedas state nArAyaNa is only the supreme brahman everywhere, such as in:

    (1) nArAyaNaH paraM brahmA, tattvaM nArAyaNaH paraH
    (2) nArAyaNAt brahmA jAyate, nArAyaNAt rudro jAyate
    (3) ekO ha vai nArAyaNaH AsIt, na brahmA, nEshAnaH

    etc, etc, etc.

    They also state that 'AkAsha', 'akShara', 'vAyu', 'indra', 'agni', 'puruSha', 'shambhu', 'shiva', 'rudra', 'IshAna' are brahman. What this means is that it is one Sriman Narayana who is called by these names. The proof of this is in the vishvakarmA sUkta, which states:

    'yO dEvAnAM nAmadA Eka Eva',

    which means "He is the One and Only who bears the names/name-giver of all the devas", and in the same place identifies Vishnu as the Creator of the whole jagat, which rests in the lotus springing from his navel:

    "ajasya nAbhau adhyEkaM arpitaM yasmin vishvAni bhuvanAni tasthuH"

    This is also confirmed in itihAsa/purANa/smRti as follows:

    (1) The Vishnu Sahasranama part of Mahabharata states that Shiva, Brahma, Indra, Rudra, etc. are all names of Vishnu.
    (2) "I alone am praised in all the Vedas" - Gita 15.15
    (3) "In the Vedas, Ramayana, and in the auspicious bhArata, in the beginning, middle, and in the end, Vishnu is praised everywhere"

    Why do we pick nArAyaNa alone? Because nArAyaNa is a name given to Lakshmipati Vishnu only, in the smRtis, purANas etc. The name is not a description of characteristics, unlike the other names (including btw, Vishnu). This is confirmed by the vyAkaraNa sUtra "pUrvapadAt saMgyAyAM agaH" (aShTAdhyAyi 8.4.3).

    Why not take Rudra etc. as 'equally supreme aspects of the supreme'? Because it is stated by the Vedas that Rudra is born and attains laya into brahman at the end of the kalpa (nArAyaNAt rudro jAyatE... nArAyaNE pralIyantE). Rudra himself in the Vedas states that he is "anapahata-pApmA" (not cleaned of sins) whereas the Vedas describe brahman as "apahata-pApmA", and identifies himself as the aShTa mUrti. This episode is re-told in most purANas. This shows Rudra/Shiva/Pashupati who is the husband of pArvati is born of karma, and is not the cause but an effect.

    When things have been so neatly and beautifully reconciled, why should we go for some contrived neo-interpretation?

    (contd.)

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  17. (contd. from previous)

    Your interpretation of "nEti nEti" can not be true even as per traditional advaita. Because traditional advaita, as it is preserved in the authentic works of Shankara and his immediate followers, identify Vishnu as the Supreme. You can either consult Shankara Bhashya if you like the advaitic interpretation of "nEti nEti" or you can see what Ramanuja has to say in Sri Bhashya etc.

    // Why does he have a special inclination for this form and attributes? Why did he place this form above all other forms? What of those people who don’t like this form? Why does Vishnu imposes the supremacy of a particular form and attributes on all human-heads? //

    There are many explanations. One explanation is that this particular form embodies all the various tattvas in creation, showing He is brahman. Refer to Vishnu purANa. There are other explanations, but these are meant to be rahasyArthas, and not to be discussed with non-Vaishnavas (to save non-Vaishnavas from the danger of bhagavat/bhAgavata apachAra that they would commit by maligning these practices).

    // Do you think that righteous men are born among Vaishnavas only and others merely have treacherous or deluded or confused intellects? //

    You know this is not a question of righteousness only, and hence this is a rhetorical question.

    Those who have perfect knowledge of the purport of the Vedas and are exemplary in conduct intellectual honesty must be Vaishnavas. This is just like saying “any triangle must satisfy the property that the sum of their angles is 180”.

    There are those who refuse to accept truth because of their attachment to a particular religious practice, due to sentiments, etc. They stay silent and offer no explanation to mounting evidence against their thesis. If this is not confusion (placing sentiments in favour of neutral-minded analysis), what else is it?

    There are intellectually dishonest ones who will resort to name-calling, demagoguery, and trolling to prevent a useful discussion. They are quite deluded.

    And we also have had people who spuriously propagated anti-Vaishnavite works as Upanishads, knowingly out of their envy for Vishnu and Vaishnavas. And then there are those who revile Vaishnavas and their practices, and ridicule them. They are truly treacherous.

    // How will you decide that different perceptions of others are not correct?//

    // Such debates have been going on in this land for thousands of years and they have not reached any final conclusion.//

    You conveniently seem to be ignoring the fact that these debates are very well settled. The onus is on your end to read Vaishnava works which settle these matters. The results of these debates have not been seriously challenged. Only that they have not been accepted because of peoples’ inclinations these days.

    I am not intending to change your beliefs. You have made your intentions very clear in the comments to this article:

    http://mahapashupatastra.blogspot.com.au/2012/01/hidden-secrets-of-bhagawad-gita.html

    All that I am doing is answering a pUrvapakSha to present siddhAnta clearly. And it helps everyone including myself to learn more and put things in proper perspective through this exercise. Thanks for the opportunity... so long then!

    sarvaM shrIkRShNArpaNam

    (The end of my response).

    PS: Unless you have something new to say, I will not publish your comments any more. No point in you re-iterating the same in different language and me doing the same.

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  18. // You conveniently seem to be ignoring the fact that these debates are very well settled. The onus is on your end to read Vaishnava works which settle these matters. The results of these debates have not been seriously challenged. Only that they have not been accepted because of peoples’ inclinations these days. //

    For a quick summary of this, please see Anonymous' comment dated October 29, 2013 at 6:54 AM in http://narayanastra.blogspot.com.au/p/blog-page_8197.html

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  19. purushO vai rudrO"

    Read the Rudra in the Upanishads article on this website where all this has been explained. Rudra is a name of Vishnu - "rudrO bahushirA babhRu" - says the vishNu sahasranama. "Rudra" means "Destroyer of the disease of samsara" and hence, denotes parabrahman sriman nArAyaNa here.

    Parvati Pati is named Rudra for another reason - "he who cries" is a meaning of the word "Rudra" as well. This name was given to pArvati pati by Brahma because he cried when he was born due to not being cleansed of karma (ref. satapatha brahmaNa). So, this story shows that the name Rudra was pre-existent (With another meaning) before the birth of pArvati pati and applied to nArAyaNa (with the superior meaning of he who destroys the disease of samsArA).

    "Again don’t say that Vishnu is Nirguna Brahman beyond perception but when he wants to take a perceivable form his four armed, lotus eyed form rules supreme. Why does he have a special inclination for this form and attributes?"

    Because that is the form desired by true vivEkIs who have understood the meaning of the veda. That form is aprAkrtam, divya mangala vigraham, made of suddha sattvam. That form represents different tattvas that the veda communicates as seen in the astra bhUshaNa adhyAya of vishNu purAnA.

    Shiva is a jivatma. His form, while superior to that of humans in this world, is still made of flesh and blood, ie, prakrtic elements. Whereas bhagavAn's form is made of knowledge itself, as a substance.

    Secondly, he has even appeared in a form resembling Shiva in his "shankaranarayana" avatara. This form is described very well in the sastras as well. However, this is neither a form of shiva nor anything that indicates shiva as supreme. It is wholly bhagavan's form in which he shows that he possesses all the attributes of other devas as well.

    Bhagavan is called Devadeva by Arjuna in the Gita because - He possesses all attributes, names, forms of the devas and also possesses many names, attributes, forms that the devas do not possess.

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  20. "Why did he place this form above all other forms?"

    This question is logically flawed as it assumes in its formulation itself that there are other forms of parabrahman (denoted by the second "form" in the first place). When the form of shiva is a material one, made of flesh and blood like yours and mine, whereas the form of the vishnu is aprAkrta, then where is the question of him placing his form above others? His form is naturally his own and superior.

    "What of those people who don’t like this form?"

    Refer to the fate of sisupala who said, "I hate he who has 4 beautiful arms".

    If you have no attraction to his form, and you worship shiva and consider his form as beautiful, it is just like a person who is indifferent to bhagavan and considers the form of his own wife (made of flesh and blood) to be more desirable.

    When so many people in the world are more attracted to their wives, husbands, etc than vishnu, it is hardly any surprise if they like the lower forms of the devas than vishnu as well! All these forms other than vishnu are prakrtic. They will come to that understanding eventually.

    Of course, they have the tamasa puranas and avaidika mathams like buddhism created by the merciful sriman narayana.

    " Why does Vishnu imposes the supremacy of a particular form and attributes on all human-heads?"

    Again, a logical fallacy. By saying "a particular form and attributes", you are already assuming 1) there are other forms and attributes equal or superior to bhagavan, 2) that he imposes this particular form instead of the others on us. These two assumptions are invalid as they are the subject of the current debate itself, ie, you have not established that there are indeed other forms equal or superior to vishnu's and that shiva's form is qual or superior to vishnu. Your personal inclination for that form is nothing more than a man's inclination for a woman with a different mind-sets (both have one thing in common in that they ignore bhagavan; difference is in the way they love those forms).

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  21. "Secondly the Brahamasutra you are pointing at doesn’t mean that Brahman can be directly realized from the scriptures.The Chatuhsutri states - We are now commencing an inquiry into the nature of Brahman from which this phenomenal world comes into existence, is sustained and again merges into It.The Shastras are a means of knowledge (Yonih= pramanam) for this fact because to this conclusion(that Brahman is the Ultimate Cause of this universe) the various seemingly contradictory statements of this Shastra arrive."

    For a guy who refuses to accept the opinions of true scholars, you are sure giving a lot of stupid views here.

    Let me explain. The mundakOpanishad recognises two types of vidya - para and apara vidya. The apara vidya is the rg, yajus, sama, atharva veda (including the upanishads), the vedangas and upabrahmanas. The para vidya is the fruit of the study of this apara vidya, which is upAsaNa vidhi brahma sAkshAtkAratvam. Thus, knowledge provided by the apara vidyA only leads to the practice of this para vidyA and thus, brahman is not realised by the apara vidyA alone. But the knowledge provided by apara vidya alone leads to para vidya (upAsaNa), which is the true means of brahman realisation.

    Secondly, the sastras at one point enjoin meditation on brahman. At another point, they say he cannot be attained by such meditation. Yama tells Nachiketas in the kEnOpanishad that the atma cannot be realised by hearing, seeing, etc and only chooses those he (the atma) wishes. What this statement only means is that Brahman cannot be attained by our efforts of meditation etc. It is only his grace that such meditation attains its fruit of brahma sAkshAtkAratvam. It does not mean meditation, etc is not a valid way.

    Now, coming to your ridiculous argument of the chatussutri. The first sutra establishes that we must inquire into Brahman. The second sutra establishes that this Brahman is the cause of the Universe. The third sutra, thus has the following context - if the pUrvapakshin argues that the cause of the universe, namely Brahman, can be inferred from logic (as some nayAyikAs assert that the cause of the universe can be determined by reasoning itself), it is not so - for Brahman, the cause of the Universe, is to be known from the Veda only.

    Thus, "sAstrayOnitvAt" - the sAstra is the only source of knowledge of that Brahman, which is the cause of the Universe. Perception and Logic are valid only within their own spheres of influence. Sastra is the ultimate source of knowledge on Brahman.

    And the fourth sutra thus establishes, the authority of sAstra as the source of knowledge of Brahman is only due to the Sastra being connected with the highest purushArtham for the jivas.

    And the sAstra contain very specific references as to who this Brahman is. It is vishNu nArAyaNa, who is referred to by all names in the samhitAs, be it Indra, Agni, Varuna, Vayu, Rudra, Shiva, Sarva, Svayambhu, etc.

    Don't flout your half-baked claims here. NO vedantic scholar has ever upheld siva-vishnu aikya.

    ReplyDelete
  22. "The Sharvana ,Manana of the Shastras make us INTELLECTUALLY steadfast about the fact of Brahman is the cause of this universe. We CAN NOT realize with our poor intellect the NATURE of Brahman. It is beyond the realm of our intelligence."

    More stupidity on your part.

    That Brahman is the cause of the universe is understood by mere reading of the texts. It is not mere vAkyArtha jnAna. The sravana, manana, etc enjoins meditation on Brahman as the cause of the Universe so that it culminates in brahma sAkshAtkAram, ie, a vision of Brahman as the cause of the universe as well.

    That we can indeed realise this Brahman is the import of the purusha sukta itself: "vedAhamEdham purusham mahAntam...nanya pantha ayanAya vidyatE" - "I KNOW this purusha...there is no other WAY". Here, "knowing" refers to a vision of brahman by upAsaNa and "way" refers to the upAsaNa that is described in the sAstra as the means to know Brahman.

    The statements such as "yatO vAcho nivartantE" only declare that Brahman cannot be comprehended fully. Because his qualities are infinite, the experience is also infinite and hence, cannot be described fully. But certainly, it does not mean he is beyond all description. If intellect cannot realise Brahman, then there is no purpose of the vAkya "jnAnan mOkshO jAyatE" (by knowledge, moksha is attained).

    Srutis also describe Brahman as a lion (narasimha) in the cave of the heart (gartasadam), as lotus eyed (tasya yathA kapyAsam pundarIkam evam akshinI), as blackish complexion with the golden tejas of lakshmi (nIlatoyadamadyasta vidyullEkhena bhasvata), as the husband of Lakshmi and Bhu Devi (hrIsca tE lakshmisca patnyou), as One who bears the Sudarshana chakra (vajrinnabhi - manyu suktam) and as nArAyaNa, a name, which according to panini, cannot be applied to anyone and by which, all other names such as Shiva, Rudra, etc denote nArAyaNa only. Even the nArAyaNa suktam says "sAsvatam shivam achyutam" showing how Shiva is a name of nArAyaNa only.

    ReplyDelete
  23. Lastly,

    ‘Na- iti na- iti’

    Shows your poor understanding of sAstra. "Neti Neti" follows a description of Brahman's attributes. It means "Not this much, Not this much". In other words, Brahman, though describable, is not just this much with respect to his auspicious attributes. His attributes are infinite, so it is impossible to describe them FULLY. However, it does not mean he is beyond description as very specific descriptions such as him being the cause of the universe, satyam, jnanam, anantam, anandam and amalatvam, etc are there in sastra.

    Now, the above is srI rAmAnuja's interpretation. In case you accuse me of bias, let us go to srI sankara's interpretation. According to the advaita view (my more knowledgeable friend will correct me if I am wrong as he knows more about advaita), "neti neti" negates the attributes and states that Brahman is nirguna. In other words, even this saguna brahman is of a lower level.

    So even here in advaita, the context is that of nirguna brahman. This has no relevance to saguna brahman, which sri sankara accepts as vishNu-nArAyaNa only and says that he has auspicious attributes.

    Enough of your ignorance on this blog.

    ReplyDelete
  24. "And how will you decide that Madhva or Ramanuja is stating the fact and a Shaivaite Acharya is not?"

    Because no shaivite acharya with the exception of appayya dikshita claimed to be a vedantin. In fact, shaivites have always been an unvedantic sect. They reject the vedas if it contradicts their agamas. First read into this and then comment.

    And Appayya Dikshita himself has acknowledged his own failings with trying to interpret the vedas in a shaivite light.

    "You will put forth finer arguments and I will try to counter them with my POOR logical skill and mind you I’m quite hard headed at this. As such I will not accept your version of truth if you can’t provide me some better proof of your claim other than who says what in whichever book written some hundreds of years ago about the true purport of the Vedic literature."

    You are hard-headed, as in stupid. If so, I accept your claim.

    You have no interpretation of the vedas other than randomly pick names like Rudra, Shiva, etc and say it refers to pArvati pati. Then you say that Brahman is beyond your intelligence (which is quite true, as you are certainly intellectually challenged). First learn the basic etymology of these names and how they are attributed to nArAyaNa only.

    And do not come back with a bunch of quotes like "RudrO vai purushO" because all these names are names of nArAyaNa only and do not refer to pArvati pati there.

    ReplyDelete
  25. A couple of points that this guy posted in some of the posts in the mahapashupatastra blog which I consider worth refuting as well:

    1) He claims that daksha yajna shows the superiority of shiva. Actually, dakshna yajna has the following inner meaning - "destroying daksha's sacrifice" refers to destruction of the actions committed by the skilled indrIyas (daksha means clever or skilled). "Taking away the eyes of bhaga" means "removing the pleasure/pain experiences of the inherited share (bhaga), ie, the results of the action". "Virabhadra" means "good strength" - refers to bhakti yoga as "strength" is a metaphor for knowledge.

    So, Shiva created Virabhadra to destroy daksha yajna and remove the eyes of Bhaga - The jivatma (shiva) indulges in upAsaNa (virabhadra) to destroy the actions (sacrifice) of the indrIyas (daksha) and remove the pleasure/pain feelings (two eyes) from experiencing results (bhaga) of such action. This whole episode shows shiva is a bhakti yogi and a jivatma only.

    2) He claimed Rama worshipped Shiva when such a thing is found nowhere in the vAlmiki rAmAyaNa. There is only one statement Rama makes that "I built the bridge by the grace of mahAdeva". This "mahAdeva" referred to here is not Shiva, but Samudra Raja who suggested the idea to build a bridge and parted the ocean for bhagavan to go to Lanka. Since Samudra Raja helped Rama, the former is referred to with respect by Sri Rama as "mahAdevA" (common noun meaning "great god").

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Even Maheshwara Tirtha, the advaitic commentator (disciple of Madhusudana Saraswati) says that "mahAdevA" is Samudra Rajan only, taking the vaijayanti nikaNDu statement which says "mahat" is a synonym of "jala".

      Delete
  26. Abhijit,

    Despite my warnings, you have wasted time and bandwidth in writing comments which:

    (1) Recycle the same old garbage that you have dumped above in your previous comments,
    (2) Contain incongruous ramblings, and
    (3) Use filthy language to censure both of us while you pretend to respect our AchAryas.

    I am sorry that your effort in writing the last few comments have been wasted. But then I had warned you properly, so you should have taken that into consideration before rambling again.

    This blog welcomes sincere Shaivas who follow decorum and who wish to understand their pUrvapakSha. It is not for trash talkers. We are quite fair in this matter, unlike your friend at mahapashupatastra who stifles all Vaishnavas, intelligent or otherwise.

    ReplyDelete
  27. Dear Sir,

    namaste!

    You and the 'Anonymous' - both sirs are very knowledgeable, hence i wish to seek your expert advise on one long standing doubt of mine.

    I read in some sites that sri madhavacharya ji has supposedly given a hierarchy among gods (taaraatamya) where he said wind god is superior to Rudradeva. Then how come shaivites claim Hanuman as the avataram of rudradeva? Is it mentioned in Valmiki ramayana about hanuman as rudravataram? What i heard/know is hanuman is wind god's son as per Valmiki ramayana (i may be wrong as i'm not as good as you, so kindly pardon me if i am saying anything wrong here). So, as wind god ranks higher than rudradeva how come hanuman is called rudradeva's avataram? Kindly educated me about Valmiki's opinion in detail.

    Also, I am interested to know more about the upasana methods of panchamukhi hanuman ji, like his kavacham, his pujavidhi, stotrams etc. Do i need any initiation for performing panchamukhi hanuman sadhana or it is allowed to do by anyone? Also, kindly share the panchamukhi hanuman related slokas or stotras from valmiki ramayana for my parayanam.

    jai hanuman!

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Dear Friend,

      Namaste and thank you for your appreciation of our work. As a request, please try to keep discussions relevant to the original blog post.

      Actually Shaivas do not accept the concept of avatAra for brahman (they say that brahman can not be born in a female's womb, as a rule).

      Regarding the Vaishnava position, here is what I am aware of:

      I am pretty sure that Valmiki Ramayana does not have anything that indicates that Hanuman is an avatAra of Shiva. (Kamban, the Tamil poet however says hanumAn is rudrAMsha, but not necessarily sAkShAt rudra). It is generally accepted by all that Hanuman is vAyu putra, yes. But mAdhvas take exception to this and say that hanumAn is vAyu's avatAra only. In the former case, it is not an indication of hierarchy for rudrAMsha hanumAn to be born as vAyuputra.

      I do not know about the upAsana aspects, as I am not knowledgeable in this area either.

      I will request my knowledgeable friend to comment on this; he may be in a better position to throw more light on this.

      Delete
    2. Kind reader,

      Please understand that this blog is not for general questions on Vaishnavism, but only for establishing the supremacy of Vishnu. As a last time favor, we will answer your query. But hereafter, please take care to not ask questions about Vaishnavism, or the philosophies (advaita, vishishtadvaita and dvaita) of a general nature - that is not the scope of the blog.

      Sri Hanuman is not an avatara of Rudra. In the fact, the very word "avatara" must not be used for anyone other than vishNu, as "avatara" means descent from a high position to a lower position. Since Rudra is a samsari, his appearances from Kailasa parvatam to say, Bhu Loka, which are both in Samsara Mandalam, cannot be said to be an avatara. It is only Vishnu's descent from Sri Vaikuntam to Samsara Mandalam that is an avatara. However, since the word has become colloquial usage, we won't be so rigid even if you use it for devas!

      Sri Hanuman is not Rudra. According to Sri Vaishnavas, he is the son of vAyu and a mArut. According to mAdhvAs, he is vAyu and bhIma as well as mAdhva himself. The two traditions differ on his identity in this respect.

      Regarding his worship, he must be worshipped as a guru and not as parabrahman or a manifestation of Brahman. Because Sri AnjanEya is a jivAtmA. We sri vaishnavas, of course, consider him as equal to Sri Ramanuja himself with respect to worship and status as a guru, but we do not worship him as a god, or as all-pervading etc.

      Some say he has the strength (vIryam) which was bestowed to him by Rudra. It is quite possible. He may have been blessed by Shiva with strength, but that doesn't equate him to Shiva. Not that we are insulting Shiva here, mind you. Shiva is a great devotee himself, we are just establishing the truth here, that both are different personalities.

      Panchamukha Hanuman is worshippable because that form was granted to him by Vishnu himself, whose shakti was bestowed on Hanuman. But one should only go to Hanuman temples that are established by pAncharAtra or vaikhAnasa agamas, where he is said to be a devotee and a guru. If AnjanEya is installed in a temple as a God or a so-called manifestation of Brahman, then it is not a correct mode of worship.

      Delete
    3. Dear reader,

      I would like to add to the above replies to your comment:

      You are welcome to post general queries regarding Vaishnavism/Philosophy using the "Contact Us" link. I will then get the message delivered to just my inbox directly. The message will not be displayed in public, and I will be able to reply to them. It is just that we don't want the particular comment threads under specific topics to go off-topic.

      Kind regards

      Delete
    4. Namaste,

      I am sorry that i have posted wrong query in your website, and that angered both of you. I didn't do it knowingly so i may kindly be pardoned. I'll be cautious in future if i need to discuss anything here.

      Thanks to both of you for providing good info around my queries. I had also asked one of my collegue about the same query and he sent me a website (copied below).
      http://www.salagram.net/Hanuman.html
      Thought of sharing this link with you too (you are already knowledgeable but just thought to share what i got) The great info that you both furnished plus the info given in below website i think i have got a lot of info for setting my devotion unto his feet. As advised by Anonymous sir, I'll find and visit any hanuman temple run by Vaikhanasa or pancharatra priests and take further advise on hymns and puja vidhi form them.

      Namaste again. Jai hanuman.

      Delete
  28. very nice effort and thoughtful points in establishing srIman nArAyaNa's supremacy. If you dont mind, adiyen will add this link in our http://srivaishnavagranthams.wordpress.com/srivaishnava-links/ page.
    adiyen sarathy ramanuja dasan

    ReplyDelete
  29. Dear Swamin,

    Namaskaram and thank you for your appreciation. Privileged to receive your appreciation.

    It would certainly be helpful if you add a link on your page, if you find it worthy.

    Adiyen
    HBB

    ReplyDelete
  30. Dear Swami,
    Brilliant Work. Many salutations to you for your efforts. Truly magnificient.
    Request you to keep up the good work you are doing by acting as BULWARK against the Unscrupulous arguments of Unscrupulous elements trying to disprove the supremacy of Lord Vishnu.

    There seem to be some unscrupulous elements who are trying desperately to apply Narayana Anuvaka, Narayana Upanishad statements to Paravati and desperately trying to prove that Parvati is Narayana.
    They are quoting from Sarabha, Devi and some bahavricha and saying that Paravati is Narayana.
    They quote Rig 7.46.5 and Yajur, 6.5.6 and say Rudra is supreme which is against the very essence of VEDAS.

    Please carry on with good work of yours and i may be permited to say, let "Lord Lakshmi Narasimha shower his full grace on you".
    Request you to provide you email id so that adiyen can get a few things clarified about the above statements.

    Adiyen
    Murali

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Respected Swamin,

      Kindly use the form in the 'contact us' link (last one in the list of links on the right side panel of this page'. Please remember to provide your email id otherwise I can't get back. Once you use this form we can correspond in private.

      Alternatively, if it suits you we could continue here since making the conversation public will benefit others too.

      Adiyen

      Delete
    2. Apologies for forgetting earlier.

      I am indeed very humbled by your appreciation and aasheervaadams.

      Adiyen

      Delete
  31. Hello Sir,
    I just had a question that was really troubling me. As you have said in one of your articles, Parvati is just the female form of Vishnu. Many Saivites claim that the Vishnu or Narayana in the scriptures in none other than Parvati, as Vishnu is Parvati's male form. Could you please shed some light on this? I'm sorry if you have already answered this, but since you have a huge collection of articles, I find it difficult to find the answer. Thank you.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Hello Sir,

      We will soon have an article published about this.

      Delete
    2. Addendum: Nowhere have we mentioned that Parvati is a female form of Vishnu. Both are distinct personalities.

      Delete
  32. hello sir, i have a question that in Rig Veda is says that god has no body and so does yajur veda. could you please explain on how worshiping vishnu as God is the right thing. i am really puzzled by this because i am vishnu devotee and i need answers. thank you

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Dear sir,

      Can you first let me know what the exact verse number is? Without that, I can not answer accurately.

      However, when the Vedas say that God has no body, we have to take it to mean that He has no body composed of five elements which are triguNAtmaka. This is because the Vedas themselves state that He has a Supremely Auspicious Body which is aprAkRta (not composed of five material elements). Purusha Suktam refers to Him as "AdityavarNaM tamasaH parastAt", Narayana Suktam refers to His mUrti as "neelatoyada madhyasthaH vidyullekhaiva bhaasvaraH", and Chandogya Shruti says He has eyes like two lotuses that have been freshly made to bloom by the sun ("kapyAsaM puNDarIkamiva akShiNI").

      Delete
    2. okay thank you sir! I understand now. Lord Vishnu only has a spiritual body. ALso, the verses that talk about god with no body are as follows.
      Yajurveda(40.8)
      "shudhama poapvidham"-"He is bodyless and pure."

      Yajurveda(32.3)
      "Na tasya Pratima asti"-"There is no image of Him."

      Thank you for clearing my doubts sir! Haribol

      Delete
    3. These are mistaken translations quoted by some indviduals and missionaries like Zakir Naik. Discussion of these is beyond the scope of this blog. However, let me just state that these mantras (in their pristine form), only say that he has no material body and that there is no-one equal to him.

      Delete
    4. Do you think it would be possible for you to post more of those verses from the vedas that say that God has a body? Thank you so much!

      Delete
    5. Please refer to the various dvaita and vishishtadvaita websites on the net to get exact quotes. As I reteirated before, this is not the purpose of our blog.

      Delete
    6. Thank you. I have still not found any of the websites to get the quotes, but I will keep trying! HARIBOL!!!

      Delete
  33. I am a little confused on how can an Advaitin think that Vishnu is supreme. He believes that all of the deities and souls are basically the same, so how can an Advatin believe that Vishnu is superior to the others?

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. In advaita, all the souls are basically the same only in the pAramArthika level. In the vyAvahArika level, Vishnu is supreme and the rest are all jIvas subject to karma. This knowledge is important since upAsana, bhakti, etc. fall in this level as per advaita philosophy.

      Delete
  34. namaskar... very impressive .. hbb you are probably south indian?? where in south india do live nbdasa-at-gmail.com

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Thank you very much for the appreciation. I will contact you when time permits.

      Delete
  35. if rajas and tamasic puranas are not correct, then why did vyasa write them? show me proof that rajas and tamasic puranas are not correct. thank you

    ReplyDelete
  36. "if rajas and tamasic puranas are not correct, then why did vyasa write them? show me proof that rajas and tamasic puranas are not correct. thank you"

    Might I add that that while your uncanny ability to notice that srI veda vyAsa wrote the purAnas is no doubt a great feat that has never been achieved before, it is rather strange that you did not notice the article we wrote regarding these purAnas in the blog.

    General note to readers: If you think there is any gap we failed to address, you are welcome to inquire. But before doing so, please read the content of the blog to make sure that we haven't addressed that issue already. Even if you feel impatient to go through all the articles, a simple keyword search using the well-known CTRL + F would yield rich dividends and save you and ourselves from a lot of trouble!

    ReplyDelete
  37. Dear Humble Bhagvat Bandhu and all the dear Vaishnavas reading this post,
    "Humble Bhagvat Bandhu" has defended the Vaishnava dharma very well, I can very well understand that he is very solid in his foundation and has a great fund of knowledge.I have only one concern dear friend,why try to illuminate the intellect of those who are meant to pass through the twilight of various faiths before understanding the pure vaishnav dharma?It will only encourage discord.... Instead I believe in encouraging everyone in his particular path. A day will come dear friend- when on arriving at the supreme personality of godhead these strifes will disappear.Let everyone come to the conclusion by their own sweet time.
    Krishna be with you.
    -Hare Krishna

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Shri Saptarshi,

      Thank you for your appreciation.

      I entirely agree that we should not "try to illuminate the intellect of those who are meant to pass through the twilight of various faiths before understanding the pure vaishnav dharma".

      However, time and again, we have seen Vaishnavas being led astray due to lies and unfair portrayal of Vaishnavism as "intolerant", "vile", "divisive", "sectarian" etc. in the media, mostly by neo-Hindus and pro-Shaivas. The purpose of my blog is to ask for a fair portrayal of Vaishnavas. Who else, other than us Vaishnavas, would come to the defense of our faith in Lord Krishna? If someone starts defiling our places of worship, would we just sit idle and say "A day will come when on arriving at the supreme personality of godhead this kind of strife will disappear"?

      I agree that we should "Let everyone come to the conclusion by their own sweet time." However, we have to act if they start abusing Vaishnavas and Vaishnava AcAryas. If we are silent, these ramblings would get accepted as the truth due to the absence of any counter-argument, and those who are inclined to Lord Krishna's service will lose their faith.

      In summary, please read the introduction part in *this page* and read it again if you have already read it before posting your comment.

      Your servant,
      HBB

      Delete
    2. " However, we have to act if they start abusing Vaishnavas and Vaishnava AcAryas. If we are silent, these ramblings would get accepted as the truth due to the absence of any counter-argument, and those who are inclined to Lord Krishna's service will lose their faith" -
      You have acted and in my understanding acted very very well.....yet I believe those, whose faith in the lotus feat of Sri Krishna can be shaken is not fit as of yet to enter his transcendental service.I believe every Vaishnava should be like you -firm in his Bhagvat bhakti, otherwise he is not fit to be a vaishnava.All those that can be misled are simply being led by their -"Prarabdha".I believe that all these anti- vaishnavite elements serve as a filter,filtering out the unwanted seeds so that the pure juice of Krishna Bhaktas can emanate.Every thing has a purpose.
      In summary I will request you to defend Vaishnavism,in your own blog,but refrain from counter-attacking these people in their blog.Let the people decide whom to trust.If they are ready they will side with you always.
      These are my personal opinions,and I request you to correct me if I am wrong,since your bhakti and scriptural knowledge is vastly superior.

      Delete
    3. "You have acted and in my understanding acted very very well.."

      Well, then, first you say we acted very well, then you say we need to refrain from "counter-attacks". Self-contradictory. Vaishnava Vedanta is not some blind faith, but a philosophy propounded by the apAurushEya veda.

      If we acted well, what is there to say?

      "yet I believe those, whose faith in the lotus feat of Sri Krishna can be shaken is not fit as of yet to enter his transcendental service"

      That is neither your nor our judgment to make. If that is your "belief", then our "belief" is that those who are shaken up need to know that their sampradAya is strong. Otherwise, simply accepting everything despite arguments by opponents like shaivas makes it seem like blind faith. Bhagavan declares in the Gita that those who chant his names, etc are definitely mahatmas, but infinitely greater are those jnAnis who know the tattvas (and chant the names as well). Questioning and Inquiry is a part of vedAnta. Hence, it is good even for vaishnavas to get "shaken up" once in a while.

      Delete
    4. "I believe every Vaishnava should be like you -firm in his Bhagvat bhakti, otherwise he is not fit to be a vaishnava.All those that can be misled are simply being led by their -"Prarabdha"

      There are better vaishnavas than us, so need to compliment. And prarabdha karma is not an excuse to watch people being led away. That is exactly the intent of our acharyas - to make the effort to reach those led by their prarabdha karma. If after that, they still, refuse, then fine.

      If "prarabdha karma" were the criterion, then neither you nor I would know about Vishnu. Because none of us are so great to claim that we have transcended our prArabdha karma. And if you then say it was due to bhagavad krupa that we came to this sampradAya, then the same krupa can work for the wayward ones using our blog as an instrument.

      "I believe that all these anti- vaishnavite elements serve as a filter,filtering out the unwanted seeds so that the pure juice of Krishna Bhaktas can emanate.Every thing has a purpose."

      Well, other people believe that those blogs are the beacon of knowledge. What differentiates your "belief" from their "belief"? Only a dispassionate inquiry like the one conducted by the blog, where we ourselves discovered new meanings of the shastra and helped many others (as they have acknowledged through personal emails). So, your logic is reducto ad absurdium.

      "In summary I will request you to defend Vaishnavism,in your own blog,but refrain from counter-attacking these people in their blog.Let the people decide whom to trust.If they are ready they will side with you always."

      The two things are not contradictory. Acharya Nampillai, Swami PeriyavAchan pillai and Swami Vedanta Desikan say that when the plants are sown, the weeds are automatically removed. That is what we are doing, planting truths here and removing the weeds in the form of those ghastly blogs.

      "I request you to correct me if I am wrong,since your bhakti and scriptural knowledge is vastly superior."

      We are not superior to you or anyone else in jnAna and bhakti since we are only communicating the truths that bhagavad rAmAnuja and other acharyas established. But yes, to put it bluntly, you are wrong.

      Delete
    5. Dear Shri Saptarshi,

      In addition to the reply from "Anonymous" (who has helped me put this blog together and also contributed most of the articles on the links found in the left-side panel), I would like to add this: If not for Vaishnavas who took up public challenges with non-Vaishnavas and boldly stated what is right and what is wrong in non-Vaishnava gatherings, I would be a non-Vaishnava today believing in either one of these, or a combination of all three: (i) Shiva is superior to Vishnu, (ii) Shiva = Vishnu, (iii) Brahman is formless and is beyond Brahma, Vishnu, and Shiva.

      Hence, it is my firm conviction that it is totally wrong if I "refrain from counter-attacking these people in their blog" or if we say that "these anti- vaishnavite elements serve as a filter,filtering out the unwanted seeds". We don't say "Every thing has a purpose" and shy away from helping those in need. Saying that some bhaktas who are inclined to Vishnu but unsure are "unwanted seeds" is an apacAra as far as I can see.

      Delete
    6. Dear anonymous and Humble Bhagwat Bandhu,
      I understand your point of view.
      If you are willing and if the Lord permits I would very much like to meet you and keep in touch with you.It is not very common in this Kali-Yug to find people like you.If you please you can give me an alternate e-mail id or contact number.My personal e-mail is saptarshibhattacharjee.14@gmail.com.Keep in touch.
      Hare Krishna.

      Sincerely,
      Saptarshi

      Delete
    7. Dear Saptarshi,

      I am answering for myself. My collaborator on this blog may respond to your comment separately.

      It is nice to know you, and thanks for your kind gesture... However, I already have a handful of things to do in various walks of life right now and I may not have the time to contact you. You are always welcome to comment on any of the pages on this blog, or you can use the "contact us" form to send messages personally to me if you don't want others to see.

      In any case, we have about 18 pages on this blog full of our writings, plus a vast number of references. These are good sources of information.even in the case that we are not able to write to you personally.

      Delete
  38. Dear Swami,
    Truly agree that one should counter these Anti Vaishnavaites within ones' own capabilities. This is expected of a every genuine Vaishnava. In case one is unable to counter the Anti Vaishnavism or its votaries, one should go away from that place immediately, as it will tantamount to bhagavata apacharam even to listen to such shabby stories being concocted by Anti Vaishnavaites. The madness of these Anti Vaishnavaites is reaching crescendo levels for e.g. they are making clippings of Lord Vishnu being defeated by Shiva and you tubes showing Vaishnavas in poor light (Psychiatric disorder of highest order). Thanks to many of the Vaishnavas who have been serving the Lord unflinchingly by upholding the only real truth, that is "Lord SrimanNarayana alone is the Supreme Para Brahman", by countering all the junk that these anti vaishnavaites are desperately trying to spread. Hats off to all the bhagavatas .

    Adiyen

    ReplyDelete
  39. So just a confirmation. All the verses in the Vedas and Puranas glorifying "Shiva" or "Rudra" all refer to Vishnu? Does this mean that Vishnu and Shiva are not one? Also, what about the story when Lord Shiva defeated Lord Vishnu in the Daksha episode? Forgive me for my offenses, but I am just trying to learn the truth because I am in a family of various sects and so it is really confusing. Thanks.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Hello Sir/Madam,

      Thank you for your interest in reading our blog. We wish that you analyze our work neutrally without siding with us, and come to a conclusion.

      You are correct. Always remember these, which have been quoted and accepted by all vedAntins, including Advaitins:

      Lord Krishna's words in the Gita:

      "vedaishca sarvair ahameva vedyaH" (15.15) Note the "aham eva" word which means "only me".

      Harivamsa:

      "vede rAmAyaNe puNye bhArate bharatarSabhaH! adau madye tathA cAnte viSNuH sarvatra gIyate"

      Note that the verse says "In the Vedas, in the Ramayana, and in the Bharata, in the beginning, middle, and end"

      Mahabharata:

      "AlODya sarva shAstrANi vicArya ca punaH punaH
      idamEkam sunishpannaM dhyEyOn nArAyaNaH sadA"

      // Also, what about the story when Lord Shiva defeated Lord Vishnu in the Daksha episode? //

      Such stories may be present in tAmasa purANa, however sAttvika purANas such as shrImad bhAgavatam say that Daksha, Brahma, Rudra, other devas, and sages worshiped Lord Vishnu after Daksha Yajna was destroyed and Daksha was resurrected and reconciled with Rudra.

      Delete
    2. // Does this mean that Vishnu and Shiva are not one //

      Yes, Vishnu and Shiva are not "one" (in the sense of "hari-hara aikyatva vAda"). Shiva himself declares in the vedas that he is a Jiva by saying that he is not freed of sins. (anapahatapApmA vA ahaM asmi) See the article on the interpretation of the brAhmaNas.

      There are verses that appear to say so, but if we interpret properly, these verses mean that Vishnu has the whole world as his body, which includes Brahma, Rudra, etc. and Vishnu is the antaryAmi of Shiva.

      Coming up soon in this blog is a section dedicated to the refutation of "hari-hara aikyatva vAda".

      Delete
    3. Thank you sir for your contributions to the cause of Vaishnavism. I will be looking forward to new articles in this blog. :)

      Delete
  40. Could it be true that the complete Vedas are not complete (as in we have not found all of Vyasa's writings)? I have no looked into the actual evidence for this claim, but I wanted to know your opinion. Could it be true then, that there are more verses which glorify Vishnu as the supreme and could end all this controversies?

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. I will tell you what I have heard from respectable AchAryas, as I myself am no authority.

      First of all, Vedas are not Vyasa's writings. What vyAsa does in every kalpa is exactly as his title suggests: Demarcate and compile the Vedas into Rk, Yajus, sAman, and atharvaNa, as well as demarcate and compile the Itihasa and Puranas. Note that vyAsa is only a title and is occupied by different Rishis in different kalpas. KrishnadvaipAyana was the last vyAsa who lived in the dvApara yuga of the ongoing chaturyuga cycle (28th), in the ongoing manvantara (7th), and in the ongoing kalpa (shvetavarAha kalpa), in the second half (dvitIya parArdha) of Brahma's lifetime.

      It is true that what we have is only a part of the Vedas. How can it be otherwise, for we have the statement "anantA vai vedAH" which means that the vedAH are immeasurable in their extent. Several shAkhas have become "luptam" i.e., temporarily become inaccessible for humans due to the deterioration of the yuga and other factors. They will be revealed again by Rishis in a different yuga/kalpa. There are various shruti statements that have been quoted by Shankara, Ramanuja, and Madhva, and others from various portions of the Veda such as Bhallaveya-shAkha, Paingi-Shruti, Indradyuman-shAkha, etc. However, these are not available to us today, and the quotes of these AchAryas are all that is left.

      Finally, what we have now of the Veda is already enough to end all controversies. People have foolish blind attachments will never accept Vishnu's supremacy no matter what proof you show. It is just their karma-vAsana.

      Delete
    2. I understand that the Vedas are endless, but I meant that do we have all of the Vedic texts compiled by Krishnadvaipayana who is Vishnu himself?

      Delete
  41. You have mentioned that many of the verses in the Rig Veda refer to Narayana alone, but surely there are some about Shiva. How will we know which one refers to Vishnu or Shiva since Rudra is a name for both of them. Consider these verse:
    To Rudra bring these songs, whose bow is firm and strong, the self-dependent God with swiftly-flying shafts,The Wise, the Conqueror whom none may overcome, armed with sharp-pointed weapons: may he hear our call". (RV 7:46:1)
    and the verses from this page http://mahapashupatastra.blogspot.com/2011/08/tatwam-behind-rudra-deriving-strength.html
    Could you please inform me on how to identify the person it is referring to? Do we look at the great acharyas such as Sri Ramanuja and Sripad Madhva and their commentaries? Thanks

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. 1) Please refer to the Rudra Suktam article in this blog.

      http://narayanastra.blogspot.com.au/p/blog-page_18.html

      2) There are various layers of interpretation of the Vedas. Some verses do praise Lord Siva, but these are ultimately the praises of Vishnu who is the antaryAmin. Otherwise, Krishna's statement in the Gita "vedaishca sarvair ahameva vedyaH" would be meaningless.

      Delete
  42. "You have mentioned that many of the verses in the Rig Veda refer to Narayana alone, but surely there are some about Shiva. How will we know which one refers to Vishnu or Shiva since Rudra is a name for both of them."

    >>> When Parabrahman is praised as "Rudra", it obviously refers to vishNu. Otherwise, it refers to pArvati pati. Context always determines who is being referred to. For instance, in the kenOpanishad, Indra, vAyu, etc are tested by Brahman in the form of a yakSha. Here the context establishes that Indra, etc are the devas and not names of Brahman, obviously. Similarly, pArvati pati is referred to in places where context indicates so.

    "To Rudra bring these songs, whose bow is firm and strong, the self-dependent God with swiftly-flying shafts,The Wise, the Conqueror whom none may overcome, armed with sharp-pointed weapons: may he hear our call"

    Bad translation not withstanding, this is, as already proven on this website, a praise of Sri Rama as VeerarAghava. As stated before, please refer the Rudra sukta commentary on this site.

    "Could you please inform me on how to identify the person it is referring to? Do we look at the great acharyas such as Sri Ramanuja and Sripad Madhva and their commentaries? Thanks"

    1) Check the commentaries of these AchAryAs.

    2) If they have not mentioned it, study the context. If the context is that of Paratva or praising the Supreme Brahman, it is vishNu. If not, it could be any other deity. Mostly in the second case, it is pArvati pati, but in some cases as demonstrated in the "BrahmaNas" section of the blog, even kAmadeva, indrIyAs and the mind are referred to as "Rudra".

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. When you say "To Rudra bring these songs, whose bow is firm and strong, the self-dependent God with swiftly-flying shafts,The Wise, the Conqueror whom none may overcome, armed with sharp-pointed weapons: may he hear our call". (RV 7:46:1)"

      Assuming the above statement or translation is fine, We need to look at the word "Self-Dependent" more carefully.
      Rudra is self-Dependent, implying that, Rudra is dependent on his self, who is Lord Vishnu, who is the Antaryami of all the Jivas.
      So, Vishnu is the Antaryami (inner Self) of all Atmas and everything, is what this "Self Dependent" must be understood as.
      So perfectly in consonance with statement that every thing in Vedas refer to supremacy of the Lord Vishnu only, even though outwardly it appear to be glorifying other deities.

      To support this let me quote from the

      With offerings I propitiate the branches of this swift-moving God, the bounteous Vishnu.
      Hence Rudra gained his Rudra-strength: O Asvins, ye sought the house that hath celestial viands."" (Rig Veda 7.40.5)

      So, Rudra derives his Rudra strength from Vishnu [RV 7.40.5]

      When we look at these two statements 7.40.1 and 7.40.5 together from RG, it is very clear that
      Rudra derives his strength from his antaryami( inner self, who is none other than the Supreme Vishnu)

      Delete
    2. <<<<<<>>>>>>>

      Why the circular logic? Vedanta Desikan calls Rama as "asahAya shUra, anapahAya vIra" - one who defeats his enemies with his bow and arrows without any help. VishNu is self-dependent, or dependent on his own glory --> thus "svadhAvnE" or self-dependent refers to vishNu who is directly addressed as Rudra here.

      It is a reference to Rama only and not to Shiva or the antaryAmin.

      Delete
    3. <<<<<<<>>>>

      Why assume that it appears to glorify other deities? Outwardly as well, it is a direct praise of vishNu. The antaryAmin concept applies only in atharvasikha and pratardhana vidya where Indra and Rudra directly talk about their antaryAmin. The samhita portions only glorify vishNu directly by many names. "Ekam Sat..." rk itself says that.

      <<<<<<<>>>>>>

      It is 7.46.1 and 7.40.5. Why are you looking at these together? Take them seperately. 7.46.1 refers to Rama as Rudra. 7.40.5 refers to pArvati pati (Rudra) getting his strength from vishNu. The samhitas do not ever glorify devatas other than vishNu even indirectly.

      Please read the Satarudriyam and Rudra Sukta sections as suggested before for a clearer picture. "rudro bahushirA babhru:" says the sahasranAma. These are direct names of vishNu.

      Delete
    4. <<<<>>>>

      That's 7.46.1. In any case, no need to look at those together. They talk about two different tattvas. One is a direct praise of Rama as Rudra, and the other praises Vishnu as the one who gives strength to Parvati Pati (referred to as Rudra here).

      It seems to me that you have not yet understood how the veda is interpreted. There is no need to take an indirect approach when there is a palpable "direct" approach. "rudrO bahushIra babhru" is mentioned in the sahasranAma.

      The antaryAmin concept is only applied in the case of pratardhana vidya and atharvashika where Indra and Shiva refer to their antaryAmin respectively. And in some animal sacrifices where offerings are offered to the devas like vAyu, as well as in the shAnti mantras.

      The samhitas are purely praises of vishNu *directly* under different names. And going by epithets such as "wise", "conqueror" and "self-dependent", it is a reference to vishNu. The vedas never use such epithets for other devas because their vIryam/jnAnam, etc is negligible compared to nArAyaNa and the former would amount to nara-stuti, ie, praising karma vasyals.

      Delete
    5. I understand what you are saying, but some verses even diminish the "Vishnu" in the Vedas such as (I got this from the Pashupatastra blog)
      "Father of sacred chants, Soma flows onwards, the Father of the Earth, Father of the Celestial region: Father of Agni, the creator of Surya, the Father who gave birth to Indra and Vishnu" (Rig Veda IX.96.5)
      "sá yád dhruvā́ṃ díśam ánu vyácalad víṣṇur bhūtvā́nuvyàcalad virā́jam annādī́ṃ kr̥tvā́ |" (Atharva Veda 15:14:5)
      "He (Vrata/Shiva), when he went away to the stedfast region, went away having become Vishnu" (Atharva Veda 15:14:5)
      Is this just poor translation on his part, or is there another way to explain this? Thank you respected swami.

      Delete
    6. // "Father of sacred chants, Soma flows onwards, the Father of the Earth, Father of the Celestial region: Father of Agni, the creator of Surya, the Father who gave birth to Indra and Vishnu" (Rig Veda IX.96.5) //

      // "He (Vrata/Shiva), when he went away to the stedfast region, went away having become Vishnu" (Atharva Veda 15:14:5) //

      Please do not rely on the translation, rather rely on the mUla texts themselves.

      We have explained this mantra "somaH pavate..." in this article: http://narayanastra.blogspot.com.au/p/the-absurdity-of-shakta-interpretations.html

      In short, these mantras describe para-vAsudevan's avatAra as Vishnu among the devas.

      Delete
    7. By para-vAsudevan I mean the Lord of Vaikuntham who has an eternal auspicious form. He manifests Himself as Vishnu.

      Delete
  43. "Some verses do praise Lord Siva, but these are ultimately the praises of Vishnu who is the antaryAmin."

    As an addendum to what my friend wrote:

    1) Vedic mantras only praise Shiva as a jnAni who leads one to Brahman as in the Rudra gAyatri.

    2) Some mantras have Shiva himself referring to his antaryAmin in the vein of "aham brahmAsmi".

    3) Other mantras praise vishNu directly by calling him as "Rudra".

    Point blank, srI krishNa's statement in the Gita shows that ONLY Lakshmi-Narayana is praised everywhere in the veda. Even the various stories of other devas in the BrahmaNas ultimately culminate in some glorification of vishNu.

    ReplyDelete
  44. If Adi Shankarcharya was a Vaishnava, then Advaita would be considered a vaishnava philosophy right? If so, why have almost all the leaders of the sampradayas (Sripad Ramanuja, Madhva, etc) denounced it? Is it an anti-vaishnava philosophy then? This seems contradictory. You have mentioned that Adi Shankara glorified Vishnu, and it thus a vaishnava, But his philosophy does not seem to relate with the other sampradayas. Forgive me for offences, thank you

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Read the Conclusion section again, especially the remark by Vedanta Desikan. Also read the Narayaneeyam Shloka, its translation into English, and the translation of the commentary on the same Shloka, under Truth# 5. These are authoritative statements.

      Adi Shankaracharya's philosophy was Advaita (which equates Jiva to Brahman in the paramArtha level). Only this was condemned by Ramanuja, Madhva, etc. Note that there was no debate about para-devata between Ramanuja/Madhva and the followers of Shankara.

      // You have mentioned that Adi Shankara glorified Vishnu, and it thus a vaishnava, But his philosophy does not seem to relate with the other sampradayas. //

      Adi Shankara did not just "glorify" Vishnu. He glorified Vishnu as the Supreme, and the only refuge, and that the worship of other devatAs leads to lesser results only. He also particularly praises the single-minded worship of Narayana by the bhAgavatas of Pancharatra sect, as 100% agreeable to shruti.

      Delete
    2. // But his philosophy does not seem to relate with the other sampradayas //

      That is true, however it won't make Adi Shankara a non-Vaishnava. For that matter, the philosophy of Madhva is against the philosophy of Ramanuja and vice-versa. Similarly, there are other Vaishnavas (Chaitanya, Nimbarka, Vallabhacharya, etc.) whose philosophy has some disagreements with Ramanuja and Madhva, in addition to Shankara. Does that make them non-Vaishnavas?

      By Vaishnava, I do not mean "follower of Ramanuja/Madhva". Rather, I mean "one who accepts Vishnu as the Supreme, and the only refuge, and that the worship of other devatAs leads to lesser results only." This is pretty much Shankara's position if you see his authentic works.

      Delete
    3. Ah, forgive me for my wrong ideas. Also, is the 4 sampradayas verse from the padma purana authentic? I have heard many Vaishnavas (especially Gaudiyas) using this verse to show that the sampradayas are the only authentic lineage in Kali Yuga.
      "vamanas vidhi sesah sanako visnu vakyatah
      dharmartha hetave caite bhavisyanti dvijah kalau
      visnusvami vamanamsas tatha madhvastu brahmanah
      ramanujas tu sesamsa nimbaditya sanakasya ca
      ete kalau yuge bhavyah sampradaya pravartakah
      samvatsare vikrama catvarah ksiti pavanah
      sampradaya vihina ye mantraste nisphalah smritah
      tasmac ca gamanam hy asti sampradaya narair api"

      Delete
    4. These verses could be later interpolations, as they are not quoted by pUrvAchAryas. Moreover, since there are points of disagreements between sampradAyas, only one sampradAya can be authentic, and this has to be decided based on proper analysis and not based on one's faith in what is allegedly told in a purANa.

      Delete
    5. Final question, and after this you'll be done with all my stupid questions :)
      Just by rendering devotional service to Lord Hari, regardless of sampradaya (Ramanuja, Madhva, Sankara), will it be possible to attain moksha? If we say that the Vishistadvaita is the "correct" philosophy , then will the Vaishnavas in other sampradayas also be eligible for Moksha, or will they not because they don't believe in the Vishishadvaita? I guess what I am getting at is that does your philosophy matter more than your theology (Will all Vaishnavas get Moksha regardless of sampradaya)? Thank you so much! I think that this is going off topic from the original topic of this blog, but I thought it would be important for me to understand if all Vaishnava lineages are legit and good enough to help you get liberation. Forgive me for my offences. I know that I have strayed away from the original topic, and so I will not ask any more questions.

      Delete
    6. Thank you for your question. I will answer as far as my understanding goes...

      Moksha is by the grace of bhagavAn ONLY and nothing else. I can not say whether the followers of other Vaishnava sampradAyas, or for that matter, Shaivas, Shaktas, Jains, Buddhists, mlecchas etc. are eligible for mOkSha or not, as this the decision is Lord Narayana alone. He can arbitrarily grant it to any jIvAtmA, regardless of the puNya/pApa karmas, body, and stature acquired by the jIvAtmA.

      Having said that, we maximize our chances (if I may say so) at Moksha if we follow the path recommended for it, i.e., Vaishnavism and the proper rules of conduct in the dharma-shAstras like Manu Smriti, Yajnavalkya Smriti, etc.

      Srivaishnavas follow what is in the shAstras and strive at a correct understanding of the tattvas, just to please Him only and for us to enjoy diving and bathing in His qualities. They engage in debates with other sampradAyas because incorrect understanding of Him and the tattvas poses an impediment to this enjoyable experience and relationship with the Lord, for those who are gullible. This again, was seen by them as as part of their divine service to the Lord.

      Theology is more important than philosophy in the sense that we must first be bhaktas/devotees first. Lord Krishna says in the bhagavad gItA final few verses that one should never teach the Philosophy to those who do not consider Him as their Lord.

      The Lord also says that a firm conviction in the mind of the person that "Krishna/Vishnu/Narayana alone is the cause of all,and that He alone is the sole refuge" cleanses that person gradually even though that person is not following the shAstras correctly. So even if there are Vaishnavas with incorrect understanding of philosophy, they will be gradually led to the correct understanding if the Lord sees a necessity for that.

      Sri vaishnavas believe that there are bhAgavatas who are jnAnIs of the highest order, ie, vishishtadvaitins. Hiwever, those who have less knowledge of the tattvas but still acknowledge vishNu as bhagavAn are also called mahAtmas out of respect by our acharyas.

      The only thing is that one should not, while claiming to be a Vaishnava, harbor any ill will, lend oneself to stupidity, or stubbornness while undertaking philosophical study.

      Delete
    7. Thank you sir. I am very happy after reading your responses and the rest of the blog. Looking forward to future articles. As the previous Anonymous stated, you are doing a great service to ALL the vaishnavas and to Bhagavan himself. May this blog bring pleasure to Shriman Narayana, the undisputed master of all! Jai Shri Krishna!

      Delete
    8. Dear swami
      you said "Moksha is by the grace of bhagavAn ONLY and nothing else. I can not say whether the followers of other
      Vaishnava sampradAyas,or for that matter, Shaivas, Shaktas, Jains, Buddhists, mlecchas etc.
      are eligible for mOkSha or not, as this the decision is Lord Narayana alone.
      He can arbitrarily grant it to any jIvAtmA, regardless of the puNya/pApa karmas, body, and stature
      acquired by the jIvAtmA."

      Looking at the following statements from Gitabhasya of Shankara ( Iam quoting Adi shankara
      here just because others who are non-vaishnavaites have no trouble. For vaishnavaites,
      Ramanujar's and Madhva's Gita Bhasya by default say that it is Vishnu alone can give Moksha)

      For, men of wisdom, possessing evenness of mind, cast
      off the fruit of wor ks i.e., escape from good and bad births.
      They then attain knowledge. While still alive, they are
      released from the bond of birth, and attain the supreme
      abode of Vishnu-the state of moksha or liberation... which
      is free from all turmoils (Chapter 7-verse 21)

      My highest place.
      That: that A vyakta which is called Akshara, the 1m pe-
      Tishable, the Unmanifested Being. Having reached that state,
      none has returned to sam-sara, the mundane life. That is My
      (i.e., Vishnu's) Supreme Abode.
      The means of attaining to that state will now be pointed
      out: (Abhyasa yoga - verse 21)


      The votaries of the Gods, those whose devotion and
      vows are directed to the Gods, go to the Gods. The votaries
      of the Pitrls such as the Agnishvattas, engaged in performing
      sraddha and other rites in devotion to the Pitris, go to the
      Pitris. The Bhutas are the Vinayakas the hosts of Matris,
      the four Bhaginis and the Like (Mother worshippers). My worshippers, i.e
      Visnu's votaries or Vishnu Worshippers, alone come to Myself. Notwithstanding the
      equality of trouble, people do not worship Me alone, because
      of their ignorance. therefore they attain very small results .
      .... As the Vasus and other Devatas to whom the sacrifices are offered,
      I am the Enjoyer of all sacrifices; and as the Antaryamin, as the Inner
      Regulator of the Universe, I am the Lord of all sacrifices.
      Others Not having dedicated their actions to Me, they return to this world
      from the region to which they attain as the result of their sacrifice.

      The worship of the Gods is not quite useless. The worshippers
      'do attain results suited to the form of worship, but they have to return
      to this world after a time. (Chapter 9 -Verse 25)


      It is very clear that only the worshippers of Vishnu alone attain the true Moksha and not the worshippers of other deities.
      The last line of the Chapter 9 -Verse 25, reinforces it once and for all.
      Though Lord Vishnu is the Supreme and sarvaswatantra and can grant moksha arbitrarily to any one and everyone,
      he wouldn't do that because it will be very against his own words in Bhavagad Geetha. Lord Vishnu wouldn't trangress his own promises, though he is not bound by anything. It is like Lord Krishna getting bound by Yashoda using a small rope, though he cannot be bound by anything..

      There could be a few exceptions which we don't know, but, in general, Only
      Vishnu worshippers can attain the ultimate Moksham is very clear from above statements of Bhavagad Gita.

      Adiyen

      Delete
  45. “Om trayambakam yajamahe sugandhim pushtivardhanam l
    Urvarukaniva vandana mrutyormokshiya mamrutam ll” .(Rig Veda 7.59.12)

    This mantra refutes all your Vaishnavism saying Rudra is jiva and can't give liberation.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Mr. K. Singh,

      What you are saying is silly and contradicts various statements in various shAstras and statements by Adi Shankara himself which say Rudra is a Jiva and can not grant liberation. Tryambaka refers to Narasimha also.

      The mantra you quoted is a praise of Vishnu/Guru who is a Vaishnava. See the Rudram commentary page. All vedas praise Vishnu only.

      Delete
    2. // This mantra refutes all your Vaishnavism //

      Silly remark... Veda is 100% Vaishnava only. What you are saying is that the Veda is refuting itself.

      Delete
    3. @ K Singh ji, it is not that easy to refute Vaishnavism, if it is possible. This blog has shown many times that the names of the husband of Parvati are applied to Lord Narasinghadev.
      However, by K Singh's comment, some questions have popped up in my mind and I wish HBB could answer them.
      1) If the Maha-Mrityanjaya mantra refers to Lord Narasinghadev, then it is okay for Vaishnavas to chant it daily?
      2) I read one story where Markandeya Rsi chanted the Maha-Mrityanjaya mantra and eventually Lord Shiva saved him from Yamaraja. Is this how the story actually went or did I read the text wrong?
      3) All your interpretations (about Sri Rudram as a hymn to Narayana and others), are they endorsed by Ramanuja and Madhva and other acharyas? Sorry if this question sounds rude, but I showed this blog to friends and they questioned the authenticity of your views.
      Thank you for answering my questions. Jai Shri Krishna

      Delete
    4. I can answer for HBB, if you don't mind.

      Although Tryamabaka is a name of Narasimha, the mahA mrityunjaya mantra uses that name to denote the guru or AchAryA. Please see the vyAkhyAna. In that context, "Tryambaka" means One who knows the 3 vedas and refers to the omniscient guru.

      1) Yes, you can chant the Rudram, mahA-mrityunjaya mantrA, etc if you have the correct understanding that it refers to Narasimha. Even pradOsham is an auspicious day for Narasimha first and foremost. Nothing wrong in incorporating it as a nityAnusandhAnam. Azhwars have often said that the samhitAs must be chanted by brahmaNas daily.

      Not just Rudram, any and every sUkta in the samhita, be it Indra, Agni, vAyu, Rudra sUkta, etc can be chanted.

      2) mArkandEya maharishi wanted immortality and youth. He approached shiva at that time as he was a devotee of Shiva and did not have knowledge of Brahman. Shiva himself informed mArkandEya that this is possible only by the grace of vishNu (this is mentioned in the bhAgavata purAna as well). Thus, mArkandEya became a vishNu bhakta. His knowledge became complete when he saw, at the time of praLaya, bhagavAn nArAyaNa lying on a banyan leaf, swallowing all the worlds. He even saw bhagavAn swallow brahma and rudra (eko ha vai nArAyaNa AsIt, na brahma, nEshaNa).

      From then on, mArkandEya realised the paratva of vishNu in totality.

      3) Our interpretations are based on the commentary of srI ranga rAmAnuja muni, a revered AchArya in the tradition of srI rAmAnuja. He has commented on the mantras of Rudram occuring in the svEtAsvatAra and also some notes on the narasimha tApanIya as well as all the mantras you see in the "Rudra in the Upanishads" article.

      All the articles here have been written after receiving feedback from vidwAns like srI U.Ve sthalasayanAchAriar swami, srI velukkudi swami and srI mudaliAndan swami. We have only followed the works of pUrvAchAryAs.

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    5. As a further proof, which we will be incorporating in the blog, here is a portion of the Narasimha Purana, one of the sAttvika upa-purAnAs quoted by srI adi shankara himself. In this section, the rishi Markandeya praises Bhagavan Narasimha in a manner similar to Sri Rudram. I have translated that portion as follows:

      MARKANDEYA'S PRAISE OF NARASIMHA IN NARASIMHA PURANA

      prasIdAdhya mahAdEva prasIda mama kEshavaH: jaya kAla jayEshAna jaya sarva namOstutE|jaya shankara dEvEsha jaya shrIsha namOstutE jaya sarvagurO| jayE jaya shambhO namOstutE||lOkanAtha namOstutE vIrabhadra namOstutE| namas shivAya dEvAya namOstutE bhuvanEshwara||tvaM shivasa tvaM vasurdhAta tvaM brahma tvaM surEshvara: | tvaM yamasa tvaM ravirvAyur tvaM jalaM tvaM dhanEshwara nAthOsmI manasA nityaM nArAyaNamanAmayaM varadaM kAmadaM kAnthaManantaM sRnutaM shivam||

      Meaning: Narasimha! Purify me, O great Lord for whom the devas are mere playthings (mahAdEva) and delight me with your auspicious attributes, O Master of Brahma and Rudra (kEshava). Salutations to the destroyer (kAla), to the controller of all (iShAna), to the supremely omniscient One who is the creator and destroyer of all (sarva). Salutations to One who provides bliss to his devotees (Shankara) as the Lord of his devotees (dEvEsha). Salutations to the Lord of SrI mahAlakshmi (shrIsha). Salutations to the best of teachers (sarvaguru). Salutations to One who is of the form of victory (jaya) and to the One who causes happiness by his beauty (Shambhu). Salutations to the Lord of the Vedas (lOkanAtha) and to One who possesses auspicious ability to change others while himself remaining unchanged (vIrabhadra) . Salutations to the conferrer of auspiciousness (shivAya), to the affectionate (dEvAya) and to the Lord of the worlds (bhuvanEshwara).

      You are Shiva, You are Kashyapa, You are Brahma, You are Indra, You are Yama, You are Surya, You are vAyu, You are the waters, You are Kubera. You are the ruler of my mind, which is always immersed in nArAyaNa, the bestower of desirable boons, that are of a nature of unbounded bliss, the destroyer of ignorance and of an auspicious nature.

      ---

      That should clarify all doubts.

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  46. Just to add on Markandeya episode, being protected by Shiva.
    Narasimha Purana which is considered satvika Upa-Purana by Adi shankara, clearly has a entire section where Markandeya prays to Lord Narasimha, for protection from death. This mantra is actually said to be the Maha Mrtyunjaya Mantra. Markandeya was initiated into this mantra by his ancestor, Sage Bhrigu.
    Also, Just because Siva has three eves doen't mean that tryambakam refers to Siva only. Infact, Lord Narasimha has three eyes and it has clearly mentioned on the blog too at various sections and also in many authentic scriptures.
    Sage Bhrigu too, had three eyes and Markandeya belongs to Bhrigu vamsam....
    So, should we simply understand that Markandeya prayed to his ancestor bhrigu (meaning triyambakam here) and was saved from death...
    Also, Indra has 1000 eyes, then he should be supreme god, because 1000 eyes includes three eyes too...
    So, keeping aside all the illogical arguments, provided to support Siva, the Mrtyunjaya Mantra refers only to Lord Narayana, more specifically to Lord Narasimha only.
    Lord Narayana alone is the supreme god mentioned in all Vedas (shruti), smritis, ithihasas, puranas etc who can grant moksha.
    This is made crystal clear by Adi Shankara's commentary on Bhavagad Gita, Chapter 9 - Verse 25. This content is also provided in the comments above...Adi Shankara categorically states in his BG commentory, that only worshippers of Vishnu get Moksha (saved from infinite cycles of birth and death). I know, shaivates and shaktas cannot digest this and will keep making wild illogical statements.They will keep on twisting and breaking all the scriptures because, it hurts there ego to accept Lord Vishnu's supremacy..

    Thanks


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    Replies
    1. Thank you sir, do you know how I could subscribe to this blog for future articles?

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    2. Please send us a message using the "Contact Us" page remembering to include your emailaddress. We will personally nnotify you of any updates.

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    3. Let me clarify. I am "anonymous", co-author of the blog. From now on, I will use this moniker.

      The person who posted the comment about bhrigu and Indra having a 1000 eyes was not me, but another reader of the blog. As he too used the anonymous name, it got confused with my post. My post ended with the slokas from narasimha purana where bhagavan is praised by markandeya with several names.

      Regarding his view, let me state that to our knowledge, Bhrigu, despite having a third eye, is not the referrent of the mahA mrityunjaya mantra. Whatever was posted by that reader is his opinion, of course.

      It is only Narasimha who is Tryambaka. And in the mahAmrityunjaya mantra, the name refers to an AchAryA.

      Secondly, the comment regarding Indra with a 1000 eyes, etc is not relevant to the issue at hand. What is important is that Tryambaka is mentioned to grant moksha and this refers to the guru.

      Hope this clarifies everything.

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    4. ADD: It is the opinion of the authors that the mahAmrityunjaya mantra refers to the AchArya who leads the chEtana to moksha. Tryambaka is indeed a name of Narasimha, but he is not the referrent of the mahAmeityunjaya mantra in the vedas.

      However, it is Narasimha who is the referrent of the Narasimha purana section where Markandeya praises him.

      My name here shall be Aaryamaa from now on, for the sake of identification.

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    5. Dear Aryamaa swami,
      It appears my post on mahamrutyunjaya mantram was misunderstood....

      [Aryamaa] Bhrigu, despite having a third eye, is not the referrent of the mahA mrityunjaya mantra. Whatever was posted by that reader is his opinion, of course.
      Absolutely agree with you. I wanted to say that just because some one has three eyes doesn't mean that he or she can be considered as Triyambak and cannot be concluded as supreme god. Keeping this in mind, why only Siva, even Bhrigu or Indra have 3 or more than three eyes can be considered as the supreme god...So, just wanted to convey that Triyambaka is not proprietary property of Siva. More appropriately it is applicable to Lord Narayana, the Supreme, more appropriately. Hope this clears the misunderstanding.

      I think , Narasimha Purana does say that Mrtyunjaya mantram was given to Markandeya by Bhrigu and Markandeya prayed to Lord Narasimha and the same prayer also goes by Mrtyunjaya mantram...I have to check it again, as i don't have narasimha purana currently in my possesion.

      Sorry, in case my earlier posting created some confusion.

      Adiyen

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